Bills daughter is the key to this movie
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Barbed_Wire_Strawberry — 9 years ago(May 23, 2016 05:57 AM)
Bill already made the decision to involve his wife and daughter in potential harm - all for his silly ego. They are on the knife's edge at the end of the film, and from then on (too many secrets/too far under thumb).
Buy The Ticket, Take The Ride -
tieman64 — 9 years ago(May 23, 2016 05:25 PM)
Regarding Helena and her possible abduction, I'm re-pasting this from elsewhere:
We see similar scenes and themes in "Spartacus" (young women captured and forced into sex) and "Lolita" (a girl literally stollen twice by older men).
Allusions to psychosexual violence toward children are all over "The Shining" and "Full Metal Jacket" as well, the allusions ranging from subtle to overt (eg - "The Shining's" "Summer of 42" segment, a film aobut a woman's sexual relationship with an underage boy, or "Full Metal Jacket's" climax, in which the Marines suggestively rock their crotches over the dying corpse of a girl)
Here's every scene with Bill and Alice's daughter, Helena:- Helena's first seen wearing angel wings and drawing on a sketchpad. On this sketchpad is a large red figure and a small figure beside it. During this scene, Alice says that she will "leave the number on the fridge.
- Helena mentions wanting to stay up to watch the Nutcracker. In the original Nutcracker story, a young girl is whisked away by a Nutcracker, who eventually transforms into a Prince. This Prince takes the girl to the Magical Kingdom of Dolls. In Greek mythology, a ten year old Helen of Troy is likewise abducted by a prince.
- Seconds before this moment, Bill walks beside a tennis racket with the word Prince boldly displayed. In the next scene, Ziegler informs us of his tennis injuries.
- Ziegler also informs us that his wife's name is Illona, a variant of Helen or Helena.
- Helena is next seen sitting in the family kitchen. The Fright Before Christmas is playing on Tv, a cartoon about a Tazmanian Devil who masquerades as Santa. How the Grinch Stole Christmas is at Helena's side. A sketch of a creepy red figure is above the TV.
- Scenes of Helena having her hair brushed, and brushing her teeth, are intercut with Bill examining patients. Framed by red curtains, these scenes recall Alice disrobing at the start of the film, which itself recalls the images of disrobing women at the Somerton Mansion. Scenes of Helena brushing her teeth, intercut with Bill's sterile workplace, evoke the Doctor's visit in The Shining, which occurred after Danny brushed his teeth. In that scene, in which Danny and his mother evade their father's violent history of abuse, Danny talks about a boy who lives in his mouth.
- Helena is seen wrapping presents. That's a good choice, her mother says. They're wrapping a Van Gogh themed gift. In the previous kitchen scene, Van Gogh's sunflowers were pinned to a wall.
- Helena's reading in her bedroom, beside a lamp adorned with clowns juggling balls. She's reading a poem called The Shadow:
I have a little shadow that goes in and out with me,
And what can be the use of him is more than I can see.
He is very, very like me, from the heels up to the head;
And I see him jump before me, when I jump into my bed.
The funniest thing about him is the way he likes to grow-
Not at all like proper children, which is always very slow;
For he sometimes shoots up taller like an india-rubber ball,
And he sometimes gets so little that there's none of him at all.
He hasn't got a notion of how children ought to play,
And can only make a fool of me in every sort of way.
He stays so close beside me, he's a coward you can see;
I'd think shame to stick to nursie as that shadow sticks to me!
The poem offer's a myriad of readings: a literal shadow, The Shadow (in the Freudian sense) or perhaps A Shadow (a stalker or monster). - Helena's next seen asleep, a giant white teddy bear overlooking her bed. Two surreal paintings are over her head, one seemingly displaying the word sex, the other with phallic looking imagery. ( http://postimg.org/image/uw5gmxi91/ )
- Bill watches as Helena does math homework in the family kitchen. She tells her father that she wants a puppy. This cute request acquires threatening overtones when Helena states that this puppy can also double as a watch dog.
- Whilst doing her math, Helena speaks of Joe and Mike, the former having 2 dollars 50, the latter 1 dollar 75. Echoing the that's a good choice scene earlier, Helena wonders how much more money Joe has than Mike. Whilst Helena ponders this, Bill recalls his wife talking about everyone beep one another, the scene playing like a fusion of mate selection and economics. On the fridge behind Bill is a sketch of Red Cloak a mysterious character seen earlier below which the word FISHY is spelt phonetically with fridge magnets.
- Whilst doing her math homework, Helena is beside a math book called CARLOS (the aspect ratios of all new dvds cut this off). Carl was the name of the math professor we saw earlier in the film. Bill will make a telephone call in the very next scene, which Carl answers. Later Helena is seen beside toy dolls called Carlotta Junior.
- Helena is at a toy store. A figure in red makes hand gestures. Enchanting onlookers, this figure's actions resemble Red Cloak's at the Somerton Mansion. The store layout itself r
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tieman64 — 9 years ago(May 23, 2016 05:58 PM)
17 points is nothing. I wrote a 400 point United Nations presentation on how cyanobacteria cells, properly implemented, outperform perovskite photovoltaics. The EU Commissioner for Energy ridiculed me for omitting comparative lifespan data with bioengineered algae biogels, so I referred him to page 18 and called his mother a whore.
mic drop -
SavageBeauty — 9 years ago(May 24, 2016 09:50 AM)
Don't forget the board game in the toy store called 'The Magic Circle' (not a real game FYI, was created just for the movie).
Magical circle yes, just like the ritual at Somerton. Looks similar to the Circle of Solomon or the Seal of Solomon. Also known as the Ritual Circle. In the occult a circle always represents a boundary of power. If you see a symbol enclosed in a circle, it is often a symbol of the occult.
But, this magic circle can also be intended for protection from evil, so it's still left open to any/all viewer interpretation.
A picture of the box cover of this game
http://media.tumblr.com/219d667fe30c6571b861b420ef835127/tumblr_inline_n1heqwU9VF1qfo9ju.jpg
2. Helena mentions wanting to stay up to watch the Nutcracker. In the original Nutcracker story, a young girl is whisked away by a Nutcracker, who eventually transforms into a Prince. This Prince takes the girl to the Magical Kingdom of Dolls.
The Nutcracker is perhaps the perfect mirror story for Eyes Wide Shut. Although the story varies slightly depending on the performance. I watch it every Christmas.
"E.T.A. Hoffman wrote the famous ballet of the nutcracker, which was first performed in 1892. However, the story was considered to be too morbid for kids and thus, Alexander Dumas Pere rewrote it to infuse more optimism and happiness in it. The story is about a young girl named Clara. A guest at the family Christmas eve party (sometimes a relative) who is a magician named Drosselmeyer gifts Clara a magical and mysterious nutcracker that she always keeps by her side. One night, when she was sleeping, the evil Mouse King came and tried to take her to his kingdom.
Then, the Nutcracker Prince sprang to life and fought the Mouse King and rescued Clara. The ballet becomes even more interesting and fantasy runs wild from here. After his victory, Clara goes with the Nutcracker Prince to the land of magic and dreams. She visits the land of the dolls and that of the Snow Queen where she met snowflakes of all types. She also goes through the candy land and kids love to hear the sweets from all over the world that she met there. The beautiful flowers and the sugar plum fairy capture their imagination. It is only on the Christmas day that Clara wakes up to find herself back at home, surrounded by her family."
It's like a little girl version of Eyes Wide Shut.
In Greek mythology, a ten year old Helen of Troy is likewise abducted by a prince.
Ah yes, Helen of Troy, who was "the most beautiful woman in the world".
Helen of Troy was actually abducted twice.
The first time was when she was about 12, she was abducted by Theseus who wanted to make her his wife. He locked her up in Attica in Greece under the care of his mother. Helen was rescued by her brothers Castor and Pollux and she went back to Sparta. After returning to Sparta she married Menelaus and he became the king of Sparta. But it doesn't end there
The goddess Aphrodite promised Paris, who was the prince of Troy, the most beautiful woman in the world. Paris then abducted Helen (or perhaps she ran off with him, this part varies from story to story) and he took her back to Troy. This was the start to the Trojan war. Paris died in the Trojan war and Helen married his brother Deiphobus. After the war, Helen was reunited with her husband Menelaus, and she helped him kill Deiphobus. Then Helen and Menelaus returned to Sparta -lived happily ever after. According to some accounts, after the war Menelaus was always suspicious of Helen's loyalty. Was she seduced and willingly 'abducted' by running off with Paris? Or was it really against her will?
Obviously there are all sorts of parallels (more to Alice regarding loyalty) but in Greek mythology there is ALWAYS a generational curse. This generational curse goes down the line of family members passed down from parents to children.
The meaning of the name Helena: Shining Light or The Bright One. -
Barbed_Wire_Strawberry — 9 years ago(May 24, 2016 03:14 PM)
I believe the implication is sort of how Bill views his wife's sexuality and in turn how one day he will view his daughters (and modern life facilitates that young people learn about/are exposed to sexuality much younger these days, but that is just a modern perception that glosses over how things were prior to the 20th century in much of the world) - he denies it's influence on him. Trying to protect himself from the innate power to bruise the male ego and whatnot. It's particularly sensitive in terms of being a parent (particularly a father) as the cultural norm is that the man/father
owns
a woman/wife/daughter's sexuality - or in some sense has a duty to protect it. Which to some extent is true (only to the same extent that it applies to the mother).
The point being at the end that the higher you go up among the lofty circles of the elite, the more danger there is. Not to say there is not basically comprable danger at the poor end of the spectrum (as we see with Domino and a lesser extent (financially) Millich's daugher) - the reason the red heads are reoccuring is perhaps less (or equally, if you will) to do with Bill's wife than daughter. His notion of the 'sameness' of women is challenged when he is unable to 'split' himself in order to have sex with various women (usually redheads) without investing some element of personality and ego. That's why the Somerton orgy is something of a horror show to Bill and why he doesn't partake - look at the scene with Alice and Bill in front of the mirror - he gets off on his wife's reflection, and even moreso his own. He gets off on identity and ego, it's less 'raw sexuality' than a performance.
All the ritualistic/occult/fantasy stuff serves the same purpose in this film as it does in the Shining - a way to look at psychological/subconscious themes and feelings that one can't simply explain with a line of dialogue. I think performance is a key theme in this film - consider the orgy - the prostitutes clearly knew the routine, it was probably rehearsed. Red cloak knew the routine, it was rehearsed - and the aesthetic of a 'satantic ritual' is serving somebody's purpose, probably the way that the fobs who usually preach the 'good word' really get off.
Buy The Ticket, Take The Ride -
SavageBeauty — 9 years ago(May 27, 2016 12:47 PM)
I respect all sorts of different opinions, as long as you have basis in your opinion (and yours is based on what exactly?).
It would be great if you could respect other opinions on fictional movies.
If you have studied drama 101 or even fictional writing in grade school, you would have learned our stories are based on Greek drama. It's common knowledge for story-telling in the Western world.
Regarding the troll bit, I think it's not so much the difference in opinion, it's the nasty and silly way certain people express their opinions. I am not into name calling. If the conversation goes nowhere, that's OK. If someone else gets something out of it, that's great, but I'm not too invested emotionally. Have fun getting all worked up over nothing! -
christomacin — 9 years ago(May 30, 2016 06:05 AM)
Nice little insult slipped in with the "grade school" bit.
It's not an insult. It's an observation based on the maturity level you are displaying.
I do respect others opinions, but I don't have to agree with them.
True, but you do have to defend you opinions in an intelligent and rebut the opinions of others in an intelligent manner. This is a discussion board, after all, and the object is to discuss things. -
ninjafish007 — 9 years ago(November 27, 2016 01:42 AM)
Saw mention of Helena holding up dolls at the toy store in the final scene but think it important to note exactly which kind of doll she is holding and the significance of her holding the doll (apologies if this is covered elsewhere among these threads). The cut to Helena holding the doll, smiling, is rather stark and abrupt- it interrupts Alice and Bill's conversation both vocally ("Look Mommy!"), and visually (It is the first cut in the scene and the only cut away from Alice and Bill's conversation. All others cut back and forth between Alice and Bill speaking to each other). It is also the only shot in the scene that does not include both Bill and Alice, or only Bill, or only Alice. The camera lingers on Helena for two seconds sans any discernible dialogue. I think all of this signifies the importance of this one shot.
She is holding a Barbie doll.- It is a Sugar Plum Fairy Barbie doll with an image of a nutcracker on its packaging. This ties directly to the other nutcracker references in the film.
- A Barbie dolls are unique in that they are some of the few dolls for children to play with that are not baby dolls. They are adult women dolls. Known and criticized for being overly sexualized (statuesque, blonde, unrealistic proportions, etc.). If Helena is indeed to be pawned off to the elite, then she will be seen by them as nothing but a human doll to play with. She is essentially holding up a doll and showing her parents what she is about to become. Placed above all the fairy Barbies is a Barbie dressed in a bright red, much more seductive, dress.
The story of the nutcracker can easily be subverted into something nefarious. Seemingly innocent things are often subverted in Kubrick films (The Mickey Mouse Club theme, Here's Johnny, Singin' in the Rain, etc.). In the nutcracker story, we essentially have a grown adult prince whisking a small girl away from her family and home, through a pine forest (akin to a certain grove?) and into a world full of fairies and snowflakes and chocolates etc. Should the two old men abduct Helena, they will be luring her into their world with toys, and candies and lovely things that young girls would enjoy. The transitioning of a young girl into the role of play doll for elite white males probably includes an indoctrination period where the girl is given lots of toys and sweets and lovely things, all the while being groomed and transformed from "child-like fairy" doll into sexy, adult doll (doll in red dress that sits atop the fairy dolls).
The Nutcracker ballet also has a strong link to human-like slave dolls Drosselmeyer has created human-like doll "slaves" that dance upon his command.
There are also two gold Barbie boxes with star cut-outs it would be beneficial to know more about this particular doll and if it holds any significance. Are there any Barbie aficionados in the house?
PS.
Just a thought. As the trio passes the baby doll carriages at the onset of the scene, Helena really takes a shine to one and Alice remarks, almost discouragingly, "It's old fashioned." Obviously, the carriage itself is old fashioned, but perhaps the line itself could contain a double meaning that Alice is stating the role of mother caring for child is "old-fashioned," trying to dissuade her daughter from imaging herself in that lifestyle (since she knows that's not what's in store for her future). Maybe that's a stretch though.
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jaseace — 9 years ago(November 28, 2016 09:48 AM)
Just a thought..at the end in the dept store, during that last bit of dialogue..The last line of the movie, the fact that so much has been discussed about the daughter Helena possibly being abducted.. Nicole kidman says something similar to "there is one im portant thing we have to do right away, fucx" and the movie ends. Most people think she is talking about her and bill having sex, could it be that instead they lost track of Helena and she is saying Fuxk, as in fuxk where is our daughterone last thing wr need to do.. They look around for Helena and shes gone like oh beep shes gone.. Kind of makes you wonder and it changes the meaning of that last line a dialogue significantly.
