Disclaimer, I'm not saying it's not.
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jmbwithcats — 10 years ago(December 27, 2015 03:46 PM)
"And Helena appeared to be abducted at the conclusion of the film by two of the men at Ziegler's Christmas party"
Where did you see that? At the end of the movie, Helena is walking around the toystore, and Tom/Nicole have a final dialog, and that's it
www.jmberman.com
Online Mews, Reviews, Poetry, Music, and Ideas -
Barbed_Wire_Strawberry — 10 years ago(December 29, 2015 03:54 AM)
Most of us agree she disappears with two old farts who were at the first Xmas party. A young fella follows them who really looks like one of the servants at the Xmas party as well. Given the events of the last few days, that Bill would let his daughter out of his sight for a second says a lot.
Buy The Ticket, Take The Ride -
jmbwithcats — 10 years ago(December 29, 2015 04:15 AM)
I agree it says a lot and being we don't see her in the end I think is also very telling
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Online Mews, Reviews, Poetry, Music, and Ideas -
christomacin — 9 years ago(April 11, 2016 09:22 PM)
Where did you see that? At the end of the movie, Helena is walking around the toystore, and Tom/Nicole have a final dialog, and that's it
I think it's a huge stretch to claim that Helena is
literally
abducted by the bald-headed men, not to say that the cult weren't capable of it but in terms of what is shown in the movie. I don't think it happens, and I feel that's taking the story way too literally. However, I do believe Kubrick may have been up to his usual tricks in that scene, which I'll attempt to break down my thoughts concerning:
Points Favoring Abduction
:- It is true is that there are two bald-headed men at Ziegler's Christmas party. Bill is stalked by a bald-headed man after the orgy. A bald-headed man hands Bill a threatening note at the gate of Somerton Mansion. Finally, there are two bald-headed men resembling the two at Christmas party at the toy store at the end. For conspiracy buffs, this could point to a recessive baldness gene due to genetic bloodline interbreeding, a reference to very old and wealthy families throughout the world. For the rest of us, they simply stand in for rich old men. Anyway, the two chrome domes are seen walking away and Helena is also seen walking away from Bill and Alice in the same general direction. The couple do not notice her as they are wrapped up in deep discussion. We never see Helena again as the film ends.
- Helena is close to Helen, which could be a reference to Helen of Troy from Homer's
The Iliad
. Furthermore, Ziegler's wife is named Ilena (a derivation of Helen). In the story of
The Iliad
, Helen, the wife of Menelaus, is abducted (or goes willingly, depending on how you read it) by the Trojan prince named Paris. In some versions of the story Helen is forcibly abducted and presumably raped by Paris, in other versions she goes willingly and becomes the lover of Paris. What I'm saying is there is a certain ambiguity as to her character. Needless to say, this could parallel Alice's recounting of her fantasy of running of with the naval officer.
Points Against Abduction
:
It's not true at all
: For would-be kidnappers, the bald-headed men are exceptionally slack at their jobs. They are intently looking at some toys and never once glance at the Harfords, looking for all the world like holiday shoppers. More to the point, they turn and begin walking away
in front of
Alice. They are
NOT
following her at any point, or indeed even looking at her. For her part, Helena does not seem to notice them either as she walks away. For some people, this will end the speculation once and for all.
2)
It's true, but only on the level of metaphor
: The possible
Iliad
reference could point more to a metaphoric "abduction" or "seduction" by wealthy men, the patriarchy being symbolically represented by older bald-headed men. The fact that the names Helen and Ilena are so similar gives rise to the idea that whatever "abduction" we may or may not be seeing is metaphorical, not real, as she symbolically "follows after them". The name of Ziegler's wife could be Kubrick's way of suggesting Helena is destined to become a trophy wife for some wealthy man in the future, just as Ilena currently is for Ziegler. Like her mother, Helen is portrayed as possessing a dual nature. Indeed, when we first see Helena she is dressed as an Angel. On the other hand, her name is Helena, which as relates to the Homeric Helena who was an adulterer and ran off with Paris. We clearly see her mother Alice grooming her for such a wealthy husband in several dialog exchanges. Being practiced in the art of deception and duality begins in childhood. -
OutForAWalkB-tch — 10 years ago(March 14, 2016 11:38 PM)
Maybe my way of thinking is messed up, but I was kind of nonplussed? After hearing about how 'disturbing' the scene was, I kept waiting for something interesting to happen. The only slightly creepy part was the chanting at the beginning. Other than that, everything appeared to be consensual. My friend even said "Soit's just a voyeur club?". Not really that scandalous to me.
What I've got in my head you can't buy, steal, or borrow. I believe in live and let live. -
kaskait — 10 years ago(March 17, 2016 05:45 PM)
The only slightly creepy part was the chanting at the beginning. Other than that, everything appeared to be consensual. My friend even said "Soit's just a voyeur club?". Not really that scandalous to me.
You missed the implication that it was a black magic, blood ritual which was celebrated on the solstice. This ties into a theme Kubrick used in The Shining. That also took place during Christmas.
The people were partaking in more than just a voyeur/sex party. -
StaunchWoman — 9 years ago(August 03, 2016 09:09 AM)
What I find disturbing is what could be going on in other rooms, on other floors.
What we don't see.
Scenes from 'Sal, or the 120 Days of Sodom' keep flashing in my mind.
http://www.imdb.com/board/10073650/?ref_=nv_sr_1
We've met before, haven't we? -
countdown-to-zero — 9 years ago(August 03, 2016 06:35 PM)
"Why is the orgy scene "disturbing"?"
Well, firstly because it is not an orgy at all, as that implies a 'free for all' voluntary participation by all parties, and clearly, this quite starkly is most definitely NOT the case in relation to Somerton.
The Somerton scenes are rigidly structured, hierarchical, and are played out as a set of rituals in which there are clear demarcations (primarily by class, secondarily by gender or ethnicity), in which some of the 'participants' are obviously sex slaves unwittingly there to be abused by the sadistic elite, the gathering of the wealthy-corrupt in secret acting out their violent sexual fantasies and excesses as an obscene, vulgar adjunct to their everyday domination of society and its functioning.
It's not an orgy; it's a (patriarchal and capitalist) power ritual, the purpose of which is to perpetuate oppression and exploitation (of everyone, ultimately) by corrupt elites, the agents of power and capital (themselves enslaved to such institutions, even though they are so corrupt that they don't even know it), a ritual in which there is invariably a victim, a scapegoat or 'sacrifice' (Mandy/Mysterious Woman), and an initiation, a potential new future recruit (Bill Harford) to the cabal, to the elite. -
kaskait — 9 years ago(August 08, 2016 07:43 AM)
a ritual in which there is invariably a victim, a scapegoat or 'sacrifice' (Mandy/Mysterious Woman), and an initiation, a potential new future recruit (Bill Harford) to the cabal, to the elite.
Definitely. And it is occurring on the Winter Solstice which gives it more power.
This group definitely won't let Bill live his merry little life now that he has seen what they really are. He'll either be subsumed by them or meet up with an "accident". My bet is on the former because we see him closing his eyes to the criminality at the end. -
marty-130-840283 — 9 years ago(September 16, 2016 08:43 AM)
It's not an orgy; it's a (patriarchal and capitalist) power ritual, the purpose of which is to perpetuate oppression and exploitation (of everyone, ultimately) by corrupt elites, the agents of power and capital (themselves enslaved to such institutions, even though they are so corrupt that they don't even know it), a ritual in which there is invariably a victim, a scapegoat or 'sacrifice' (Mandy/Mysterious Woman), and an initiation, a potential new future recruit (Bill Harford) to the cabal, to the elite.
it is an orgy, its a large group of people having sex.
(rolls eyes) -
countdown-to-zero — 9 years ago(September 16, 2016 12:20 PM)
You need to educate yourself on the subject of 'orgies' and on what is happening in the film, because, from your posts, it would appear that your knowledge of film is restricted to children's cartoon movies. The Somerton power rituals by a corrupt elite, in which we witness sex slaves, in which occurs the sexual abuse, torture, rape and murder of people, is not an 'orgy' in any known sense of the term. In the same way as the earlier sexual abuse of a female child in the film - in Milich's costume rental store "Rainbow Fashions" - by two paedophiles with Milich pimping his own child, his own daughter, was not an 'orgy', but the gang rape of a child overseen and orchestrated by her deranged father, so deranged that he projects his derangement onto the child herself: "Can't you see she is deranged!?", just like the abusive madman Jack Torrance in Kubrick's previous "The Shining", who, after violently abusing his son Danny, tries to convince his distraught wife Wendy with the obscene lie: "I think he did it to himself"