Message?
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ValeriaMessalina — 11 years ago(August 11, 2014 04:46 PM)
I agree with you, sun_scryer. And Gary's comment implying some kind of misogyny on your part is way out of line in my opinion. It's like if I see a guy doing something morally reprehensible and call him on it, then I'm a misandrist. It doesn't work that way, you call a spade a spade. And Tracy was far from blameless in the situations she wound up in, and Mr. Novotny should've also probably faced harsher penalties, after all he was an adult in position of power, and he should've known better than let himself be seduced by Tracy and/or seduce her.
I had a hard time sympathizing with any character completely, although I could definitely understand where McAllister was coming from when he saw through Tracy's facade and knew what she really was inside: a power-hungry little liar, who would stop at nothing to get what she wants in life, who would trample on other people, blame others for her own misdeeds. And that's just a high school election, you can imagine how far she'd be willing to go when running for public office later in life or something with similarly high stakes. -
Gary1967 — 15 years ago(July 21, 2010 11:16 AM)
How was she "in business?" What could she have possibly gained from that affair? There was never a single moment when it was implied that she would ever gain in any way from her affair, other than that it offered her companionship when she couldn't find any among her peer group.
It's amazing how ridiculously overblown people are making this character to be. She would "kill her mother?" Pfftgive me a break. -
ceebeegee — 15 years ago(October 04, 2010 02:38 PM)
WRONG.
It is this sort of attitude that lets sexual predators in teaching positions get away with their sh*t. HE is responsible. THE ADULT is responsible. That is what the law says, that is what common sense says. THE ADULT is always reponsible. It doesn't matter if he loved her; it doesn't matter if she stripped naked and threw herself at him. She is not old enough to consent; by law, she CANNOT consent. He can, he is the one in control and therefore he is the one at fault and should be punished. -
falcon2484 — 15 years ago(October 04, 2010 05:15 PM)
You do realize we're talking about characters in a movie, right? In real life, if Tracy was my daughter or a girl that I knew, I'd probably be on her side. But I don't have any moral obligation to a FICTIONAL character, especially if he or she is presented by the screenwriter and director in an unsympathetic light, as Tracy Flick is in "Election."
Dave Novotny in this film IS responsible for his own actions, but that doesn't negate the fact that Tracy is equally culpable, and is definitely NOT an innocent little lamb, victimized by a viciously predatory sex pervert. If Tracy had rejected Dave's advances, and reported him to school officials from the get-go, I'd've had a lot more respect for her in this movie. But look at what she does. As I said, she WILLINGLY engages in a sexual relationship with him, keeps it secret from everyone (including Linda), and when it gets too heavy for her and she realizes there's no upside to continuing the relationship,
then and only then
does she turn him in.
As the filmmakers have it in "Election," this reaction is expected and programmed. It's how I'm
supposed
to see things. As bad as what Dave did is, he's still presented as a somewhat sympathetic character. I say "somewhat," because he's also presented as a sleaze, but they do show the ruin of
his
life, while Tracy suffers absolutely no consequences as a result of
her
indiscretion. If you want to attack me for how I see the characters, events and issues in "Election," please, save some of that venom for Alexander Payne and Jim Taylor.
The Falcon flies -
!!!deleted!!! (11305375) — 15 years ago(November 18, 2010 11:38 AM)
I don't think anyone can deny that Novotny wasn't responsible for what he had done and didn't deserve to be punished, what he did was not only immoral and disgusting but unethical as well. Between McAllister and Novotny although both behaved disgracefully the previous was the lesser of two evils although having said that it was pretty shocking that he never turned in his friend when he should have. Had it been discovered that he knew he could have found himself in some serious hot water. I'm not suggesting that McAllister should have turned in Novotny purely for that reason as of course it should have been because what his friend was doing was terrible. But McAllister really displayed a foolish, moronic sense of loyalty when he should have done the right thing. Not to mention that he had his wife and their potential future child to consider. How was he going to support his wife and child if he were unemployed, had it been discovered that he had kept quiet about another teacher's indiscretion his credibility as a teacher would have been dead in the water making it practically impossible to find work elsewhere in the profession.
But anyway, I'm digressing I think though while not the most culpable of the two and while an immature young girl I don't think you can cancel out completely what Tracy had done. I really don't think she was quite as nave as some would like to believe and knew what she was getting in to. More kids are clued up and should know that if a teacher cracks on to them that It's wrong and that if they do they should report them. God, even if she did have feelings for him and she was potentially looking for some companionship you have to remember that Novotny was a married man with a young child. I'm not saying Novotny Isn't completely blameless, I've said as much that he was a sleaze but that doesn't make it justifiable for her to sleep with him, surely knowing that it was wrong. Either way Novotny's marriage would have been wrecked but at least Tracy could have said she did the right thing in the first place. You have to wonder why Tracy did eventually turn him in. Was it to save herself in case they eventually got caught?
Look at it like this, if a child acts immaturely and commits vandalism or robbery do we immediately let them off the hook? Even and even if they have the guts to confess they're still punished. What got me is that in the parking lot scene outside the high school where she approaches McAllister she seems to not take any blame for what happened what so ever, pushing all the blame on to Novonty. Yes, as I stated he should have been the more responsible but that doesn't mean we have to ignore she in some capacity should have been aware that what she was doing was wrong as well. I wouldn't let Novoty get away with anything and to imply that those of us who didn't like Tracy is narrow minded. Children do things a lot they know are wrong and we as adults tell them as such when they are caught that they knew what they were doing is wrong, so why do it? Then you punish them. While Tracy shouldn't have been punished as harshly as Novotny (who frankly got off a lot easier than he deserved) she still needed to face up partially to what she had done. -
ScorpionTDC — 10 years ago(June 02, 2015 11:55 AM)
I pretty much agree with everything Falcon said in both posts
Death Awaits (Horror forum)
http://w11.zetaboards.com/Death_Awaits/index/ -
fwsauerteig — 13 years ago(January 16, 2013 06:54 AM)
Mr. McAllister's girlfriend at the end looks exactly like his wife
I disagree with that assessment. Gillian was more attractive than either Linda or his wife. Not a drop dead beauty, but not someone to be ashamed of.
I always felt that Mr. M vindicated himself in the end, but only to a degree. As Payne states in the commentary, the past always sorts of lingers.
Notwithstanding that, I submit Mr. M is in a better place than before. His girlfriend is actually somewhat attractive, he has a very cool job at one of the world's preeminent museums. Also, juxtapose his appearance in the aftermath with before. He looks stylish now, whereas before he had a bad haircut, but clothes consisting of short-sleeved dress shirts and dockers. -
SorrowNoMore — 16 years ago(July 10, 2009 06:42 PM)
ednorton-fan says that Paul was the only decent person in the film. I find that his ending bears examination, because out of all the endings in the film Jim McAllister's small apartment, Tracy Flick's limo Paul was the only one who came off happy and not lying tom himself like Jim and Tracy did.
This is because Paul looked inwardly as others on this thread have pointed out, "look inward for peace and happiness" is the point of the movie and since he took the bad with the good, and balanced it all out in his head, he came out unscathed. This is most important. Neither Jim nor Tracy will every truly be happy, Jim because of his resentment, Tracy because of her ruthlessness which will isolate her from others. But Paul is able to look inward and come to terms with everything, and in the long run, he will be happy.
Everything in this movie is shown to be temporary career, relationships, marriage but how you manage yourself when you lose those things is how well you survive. -
kevdor — 15 years ago(November 07, 2010 09:03 PM)
wow, I am actually impressed by that reply.. love the shades of grey you bring to the discussion, brings many things to talk about..
I see dumb people everywhere, and sometimes, they don't even know they're dumb! -
transmentalist — 15 years ago(November 23, 2010 11:55 PM)
A lot of great posts in this thread, but I have to chime in with harlowfan's take on the characters' unhappiness coming from their constant concern about what others are doing and feeling.
That's a mighty powerful life-lesson there!
And later, SorrowNoMore's take on Paul really hit home for me - he's happy because he realizes that things just happen, and that if his life had gone differently, he might even be dead.
One thing though - I don't think Tracy is as blameworthy in the Novotny affair as some here are making her seem. Not that I'm going to be dogmatic and claim, as one poster and as Jim McAllister himself said, that she's just a kid and he was an adult (it's true, but uninteresting with respect to this discussion).
It's just that she lacked a father figure, and friends, facts about her that Dave Novotny knew and exploited.
The pizza parlor scene is, I think, meant to depict Dave as a totally slimy opportunist, very intentionally seducing a lonely kid by playing to her solitude and ego. The fact that Tracy claims she didn't fall for Dave because she had no father figure suggests that, in fact, that's exactly why she fell for him (both her and Jim's narrations are full of obvious self-deception).
I also don't think she ratted him out; the principal said that her mother had "found" the love-note, not that Tracy had given it to her. Tracy did care about Dave (enough to wonder whether he'd finished his novel at the end - setting up that GREAT jump-cut!); she just wasn't into "mushy" love-letter stuff. -
actscene3 — 13 years ago(July 09, 2012 10:20 PM)
The interesting thing about Paul was that he had already gone through a major identity shift. His skiing accident prevented him from playing football. We are told that he was a very good player, and with his talent he may have gone on to get a scholarship at college and achieve sporting greatness. Now that very small window was gone forever.
Because of his loss he had to go through some soul searching and introspection. He seemed to come out of it with that philosophical attitude that things just happen; he was obviously sad about it, but he dealt with it. He applied this attitude throughout the movie and during the election. -
kevdor — 15 years ago(November 07, 2010 08:47 PM)
Agreed, I hated the movie and was praying for something other then the typical clich obligatory happy ending where "good" wins and "bad" people are punished, but no, it had to be the clichand the "good" people werent even that good.. this is typical hyllowood bullcrap, that's not how life is, and yeah, Tracy was an annoying little nerdish b!tch and I really wished Mcallister (Broderick) would have had the intelligence to rip the 2 bulletins and put em in his pockets instead of the garbage can like an idiot, the second he did that I knew he had screwed up..
Again, a potentially good movie, even had me hooked up to it for most of the time, but they blew it all with the bs ending..
I see dumb people everywhere, and sometimes, they don't even know they're dumb! -
LionInWinter — 10 years ago(August 13, 2015 03:42 PM)
But he DIDN'T get a happy ending. He lies to himself that he's "blessed", when really he knows he's a loser and he still holds a grudge against Tracy (see: throwing his drink) and people more successful than him (as shown by the very ending where he won't pick the tryhard girl raising her hand). Sure, they could have made him more over the top miserable, but seeing him pretending that he got lucky after all, and that he "pities" Tracy was much harder to watch than the over the top "go work in the supermarket next to your pedo buddy" thing. It's also a lot more realistic.
I think this ending is much more unsettling, because of how realistically petty it is. If he'd died or gotten thrown in jail or something like that, it wouldn't have had anywhere near as much impact. I guess he could have ended up single, or with a slightly worse job, but this job and girlfriend perfectly show that his current life is just a worse version of his earlier one, yet he pretends that it isn't. Doesn't look like a happy ending to me.