Message?
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!!!deleted!!! (11305375) — 15 years ago(November 18, 2010 11:38 AM)
I don't think anyone can deny that Novotny wasn't responsible for what he had done and didn't deserve to be punished, what he did was not only immoral and disgusting but unethical as well. Between McAllister and Novotny although both behaved disgracefully the previous was the lesser of two evils although having said that it was pretty shocking that he never turned in his friend when he should have. Had it been discovered that he knew he could have found himself in some serious hot water. I'm not suggesting that McAllister should have turned in Novotny purely for that reason as of course it should have been because what his friend was doing was terrible. But McAllister really displayed a foolish, moronic sense of loyalty when he should have done the right thing. Not to mention that he had his wife and their potential future child to consider. How was he going to support his wife and child if he were unemployed, had it been discovered that he had kept quiet about another teacher's indiscretion his credibility as a teacher would have been dead in the water making it practically impossible to find work elsewhere in the profession.
But anyway, I'm digressing I think though while not the most culpable of the two and while an immature young girl I don't think you can cancel out completely what Tracy had done. I really don't think she was quite as nave as some would like to believe and knew what she was getting in to. More kids are clued up and should know that if a teacher cracks on to them that It's wrong and that if they do they should report them. God, even if she did have feelings for him and she was potentially looking for some companionship you have to remember that Novotny was a married man with a young child. I'm not saying Novotny Isn't completely blameless, I've said as much that he was a sleaze but that doesn't make it justifiable for her to sleep with him, surely knowing that it was wrong. Either way Novotny's marriage would have been wrecked but at least Tracy could have said she did the right thing in the first place. You have to wonder why Tracy did eventually turn him in. Was it to save herself in case they eventually got caught?
Look at it like this, if a child acts immaturely and commits vandalism or robbery do we immediately let them off the hook? Even and even if they have the guts to confess they're still punished. What got me is that in the parking lot scene outside the high school where she approaches McAllister she seems to not take any blame for what happened what so ever, pushing all the blame on to Novonty. Yes, as I stated he should have been the more responsible but that doesn't mean we have to ignore she in some capacity should have been aware that what she was doing was wrong as well. I wouldn't let Novoty get away with anything and to imply that those of us who didn't like Tracy is narrow minded. Children do things a lot they know are wrong and we as adults tell them as such when they are caught that they knew what they were doing is wrong, so why do it? Then you punish them. While Tracy shouldn't have been punished as harshly as Novotny (who frankly got off a lot easier than he deserved) she still needed to face up partially to what she had done. -
ScorpionTDC — 10 years ago(June 02, 2015 11:55 AM)
I pretty much agree with everything Falcon said in both posts
Death Awaits (Horror forum)
http://w11.zetaboards.com/Death_Awaits/index/ -
fwsauerteig — 13 years ago(January 16, 2013 06:54 AM)
Mr. McAllister's girlfriend at the end looks exactly like his wife
I disagree with that assessment. Gillian was more attractive than either Linda or his wife. Not a drop dead beauty, but not someone to be ashamed of.
I always felt that Mr. M vindicated himself in the end, but only to a degree. As Payne states in the commentary, the past always sorts of lingers.
Notwithstanding that, I submit Mr. M is in a better place than before. His girlfriend is actually somewhat attractive, he has a very cool job at one of the world's preeminent museums. Also, juxtapose his appearance in the aftermath with before. He looks stylish now, whereas before he had a bad haircut, but clothes consisting of short-sleeved dress shirts and dockers. -
SorrowNoMore — 16 years ago(July 10, 2009 06:42 PM)
ednorton-fan says that Paul was the only decent person in the film. I find that his ending bears examination, because out of all the endings in the film Jim McAllister's small apartment, Tracy Flick's limo Paul was the only one who came off happy and not lying tom himself like Jim and Tracy did.
This is because Paul looked inwardly as others on this thread have pointed out, "look inward for peace and happiness" is the point of the movie and since he took the bad with the good, and balanced it all out in his head, he came out unscathed. This is most important. Neither Jim nor Tracy will every truly be happy, Jim because of his resentment, Tracy because of her ruthlessness which will isolate her from others. But Paul is able to look inward and come to terms with everything, and in the long run, he will be happy.
Everything in this movie is shown to be temporary career, relationships, marriage but how you manage yourself when you lose those things is how well you survive. -
kevdor — 15 years ago(November 07, 2010 09:03 PM)
wow, I am actually impressed by that reply.. love the shades of grey you bring to the discussion, brings many things to talk about..
I see dumb people everywhere, and sometimes, they don't even know they're dumb! -
transmentalist — 15 years ago(November 23, 2010 11:55 PM)
A lot of great posts in this thread, but I have to chime in with harlowfan's take on the characters' unhappiness coming from their constant concern about what others are doing and feeling.
That's a mighty powerful life-lesson there!
And later, SorrowNoMore's take on Paul really hit home for me - he's happy because he realizes that things just happen, and that if his life had gone differently, he might even be dead.
One thing though - I don't think Tracy is as blameworthy in the Novotny affair as some here are making her seem. Not that I'm going to be dogmatic and claim, as one poster and as Jim McAllister himself said, that she's just a kid and he was an adult (it's true, but uninteresting with respect to this discussion).
It's just that she lacked a father figure, and friends, facts about her that Dave Novotny knew and exploited.
The pizza parlor scene is, I think, meant to depict Dave as a totally slimy opportunist, very intentionally seducing a lonely kid by playing to her solitude and ego. The fact that Tracy claims she didn't fall for Dave because she had no father figure suggests that, in fact, that's exactly why she fell for him (both her and Jim's narrations are full of obvious self-deception).
I also don't think she ratted him out; the principal said that her mother had "found" the love-note, not that Tracy had given it to her. Tracy did care about Dave (enough to wonder whether he'd finished his novel at the end - setting up that GREAT jump-cut!); she just wasn't into "mushy" love-letter stuff. -
actscene3 — 13 years ago(July 09, 2012 10:20 PM)
The interesting thing about Paul was that he had already gone through a major identity shift. His skiing accident prevented him from playing football. We are told that he was a very good player, and with his talent he may have gone on to get a scholarship at college and achieve sporting greatness. Now that very small window was gone forever.
Because of his loss he had to go through some soul searching and introspection. He seemed to come out of it with that philosophical attitude that things just happen; he was obviously sad about it, but he dealt with it. He applied this attitude throughout the movie and during the election. -
kevdor — 15 years ago(November 07, 2010 08:47 PM)
Agreed, I hated the movie and was praying for something other then the typical clich obligatory happy ending where "good" wins and "bad" people are punished, but no, it had to be the clichand the "good" people werent even that good.. this is typical hyllowood bullcrap, that's not how life is, and yeah, Tracy was an annoying little nerdish b!tch and I really wished Mcallister (Broderick) would have had the intelligence to rip the 2 bulletins and put em in his pockets instead of the garbage can like an idiot, the second he did that I knew he had screwed up..
Again, a potentially good movie, even had me hooked up to it for most of the time, but they blew it all with the bs ending..
I see dumb people everywhere, and sometimes, they don't even know they're dumb! -
LionInWinter — 10 years ago(August 13, 2015 03:42 PM)
But he DIDN'T get a happy ending. He lies to himself that he's "blessed", when really he knows he's a loser and he still holds a grudge against Tracy (see: throwing his drink) and people more successful than him (as shown by the very ending where he won't pick the tryhard girl raising her hand). Sure, they could have made him more over the top miserable, but seeing him pretending that he got lucky after all, and that he "pities" Tracy was much harder to watch than the over the top "go work in the supermarket next to your pedo buddy" thing. It's also a lot more realistic.
I think this ending is much more unsettling, because of how realistically petty it is. If he'd died or gotten thrown in jail or something like that, it wouldn't have had anywhere near as much impact. I guess he could have ended up single, or with a slightly worse job, but this job and girlfriend perfectly show that his current life is just a worse version of his earlier one, yet he pretends that it isn't. Doesn't look like a happy ending to me. -
LionInWinter — 10 years ago(August 13, 2015 03:42 PM)
But he DIDN'T get a happy ending. He lies to himself that he's "blessed", when really he knows he's a loser and he still holds a grudge against Tracy (see: throwing his drink) and people more successful than him (as shown by the very ending where he won't pick the tryhard girl raising her hand). Sure, they could have made him more over the top miserable, but seeing him pretending that he got lucky after all, and that he "pities" Tracy was much harder to watch than the over the top "go work in the supermarket next to your pedo buddy" thing. It's also a lot more realistic.
I think this ending is much more unsettling, because of how realistically petty it is. If he'd died or gotten thrown in jail or something like that, it wouldn't have had anywhere near as much impact. I guess he could have ended up single, or with a slightly worse job, but this job and girlfriend perfectly show that his current life is just a worse version of his earlier one, yet he pretends that it isn't. Doesn't look like a happy ending to me. -
isisadore — 15 years ago(November 30, 2010 08:11 AM)
I don't think it shows her as the 'winner' because she's still a lonely overachiever, but I liked the ending that shows she worked hard and achieved her dreams.
I don't get all the Tracy hate, yeah she's annoying, but the worst thing she did was tear down Paul's posters, and even that wasn't malicious so much as lashing out due to stressher own poster came down and she just lost it. She's tightly wound but she's not a horrible person, she didn't lie or cheat to win the election, she got there early, baked 400 cupcakes, and waited in line to cast her vote.
I don't think the film was supposed to show Tracy as a bad person, she's just a lonely person who has nothing in her life besides ambition - no father, no friends, just hard work.
And I can't believe someone said she was "acting like a jerk" in the hallway when the ballots were being counted - it's somehow a jerk to be happy and jump up and down aloneit's not like she was screaming "in your face" to everyone, she was just really happy and she had the right to beif she was a jerk she wouldn't have been nice to Paul at the assembly when she thought she'd won.
I feel sympathy for TracyI feel nothing but disdain for Mr. M. -
catcherbloq — 14 years ago(September 06, 2011 12:05 AM)
Oh god, no. Tracy was a horrible, horrible person. She would sell anyone down the river to get herself ahead. She took advantage of her "youth" (why so many people believe that people are exempt from morality until they reach the magical age of 18 is beyond me) to deflect any of the blame for what happened to David, and worse, she allowed Tammy to take the fall for something she did and knew would cost her the election. I couldn't stand her. Sitting in Mr. M's shoes, I would probably have done the same thing; I would have just covered my tracks better.
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alphaboo — 13 years ago(June 15, 2012 03:03 AM)
That no one seems to notice that Jim is not a little man but someone who sees the dangers of the flicks of the world. She has cheated her way into government. Not banking, wall street or high power lawyer which would be bad enough but she is destined to be a member of the US government, She is not the person who has the good of the people at heart she has her good at heart. Would you want her to be your senator?
Jim saw that and attempted to mitigate that. Tracy comes across as a people pleaser but she is ruthless, first being offended that anyone would run agaisnt her then ripping down the poster. She wins by going to the school who fall her sweetness and light act and give her the election. Not a new vote which should have been done but crowned her king. She wins by minipulation.
In reality many seats in congress go unapossed and people like tracy count on this.
Jim may have taken the wrong approach but he was right. I sure don't want her in government.
To call him a little man with no ambtion assumes he is taking that out on tracy.
He may have been content in his life but saw the danger in tracy. Should he have looked the other way? Should we all look the other way and have a government of tracys?
Jim is a failed and flawed hero not a petty little man. Tracy is the danger