At what point did Alanzo decide to kill Jake?
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Sinister23 — 13 years ago(October 20, 2012 01:42 PM)
@ spladow - You're beeing contradictory. You say that Alfonzo already had made up his mind before he even met Hoyt.
But you also say that he kept giving Hoyt chances to be corrupt.
So he didn't really had made up his mind before he met, talked, heard, saw, and finally decided.
Liston to the audio commentary of the DVD. The director says that Alfonso probably even considered Hoyt to become his main man, because he was smarter and more capable then the other guys (the ones who were helping Alfonso at Rogers house along Hoyt).
He even tells Hoyt that he has the magic eye.
You just see black and white though. He wasn't bull**ting Hoyt nonstop. -
HowYaLikeDemApplesWill — 10 years ago(January 23, 2016 10:38 AM)
I tend to agree with your take, and felt the same that Alonzo planned to kill Jake from the jump.
In fact, when Jake was telling to story of his DUI bust in the coffee shop, I felt that Alonzo already knew the story, and Jake had inadvertently busted one of Alonzo's drug dealer contacts.
And of course Roger
had
to die, since he could roll over on Alonzo
Whose idea was it for the word "Lisp" to have an "S" in it? -
DjokerFan — 9 years ago(October 15, 2016 09:34 PM)
Referring to the scene where Jake refuses to smoke the PCP/weed. Is the following out of the realm of possibility:
Alonzo: I don't want you in my unit. Get out of my car, rookie.
Jake gets out of car
Movie over
If Alonzo wanted to kill Jake from the beginning, he gave Jake one hell of an out considering they had only known each other maybe 1-2 hours at that point.
As corrupt as Alonzo was, I refuse to believe that he was setting Jake up to be killed from the beginning. I do believe, however, that Alonzo was setting Jake up to be fired and possibly thrown in jail because Alonzo was so desperate to pay the Russians that he was willing to let his rookie be the fall guy for all of his corrupt activity that he engaged in to raise money for his debt. That's what making Jake smoke the PCP was all about. After Jake eventually gave in to smoking the PCP, Alonzo know that anything illegal or even suspicious that they did from now on could be pinned on Jake, for example testifying that Jake caused the mess in Sandman's house.
When Alonzo and the "team" went to raid Roger's house and kill him, Alonzo's plan was to testify that he and his team were going to Roger's house to arrest Roger. In the process of raiding his house for drugs, the new guy who had PCP in his system shot and killed Roger, which was witnessed by five decorated officers who did not have PCP in their systems. Part of this plan included convincing Jake that the homicide would be seen as justifiable by including in the group's recounting of the events that Roger fired shots at Jeff. Who knows what they would have actually said to account for Jeff being wounded.
Alonzo figured that Jake was better off dead than in jail when Jake 1) refused to take his share of the money, 2) refused to kill Roger, and 3) refused to take responsibility for killing Roger. Not so much because Jake was a liability to the testimony, but because Jake was just pissing Alonzo off at that point, to the point where Alonzo was just about ready to take care of Jake himself. When Jake turned Alonzo's shotgun on him, that was when Alonzo decided that it's better off that everyone leaves Roger's house alive, and he has a group of friends on the other side of town who will assist in his damage control. -
HowYaLikeDemApplesWill — 9 years ago(October 16, 2016 08:20 AM)
Ehhh, agree to disagree.after all, unless the writer comes out and says what his intent was, all us cats can do is speculate, which is part of the fun of a good movie after all.
But to one of your points where I think would tend to discount your hypothesis:
"I do believe, however, that Alonzo was setting Jake up to be fired and possibly thrown in jail because Alonzo was so desperate to pay the Russians that he was willing to let his rookie be the fall guy for all of his corrupt activity that he engaged in to raise money for his debt."
I highly doubt Jake could take the fall for Alonzo's misdeeds, after working with him for
one day
.
Whose idea was it for the word "Lisp" to have an "S" in it? -
DjokerFan — 9 years ago(October 16, 2016 05:49 PM)
Of course he could. Alonzo was very adamant about this:
"the investigators are gonna want to pull a tube of your blood to check for intoxicants, what are they gonna find, Jake? Do the math, you've been smoking PCP all day, haven't you? Remember?You talk that crazy beep I'll make sure your blood gets to the lab. You wanna walk your little baby nuts around the block you won't make it to the corner, but if you're cool, IF you're cool, you're a hero"
Alonzo made it very clear that the purpose of making Jake smoke PCP was to blackmail him into being responsible for Alonzo's misdeeds and use that as leverage over Jake at any moment that he acted out of line. -
SausagePourVous — 13 years ago(November 21, 2012 04:33 AM)
He gives the speech so that are let inside his mind,get to see Alonzo wanting to justify his awful actions with conviction,committing murder for drugmoney. He is still trying to see himself as"one off the good cops",that it was necessary evil." What you think we gonna do,roll up in a black and blue,slap the cuffs on him? Thats a highroller,dog." He reall was Rogers friend for those years(And Roger even said hes help with the russians,talk about dealing with a snake) and like the true sociopath he had become or was,the reason for getting the money for the russians suddenly is ridding L.A of its biggest(and what apeears to be
nicest and coolest) druglord.
He decides to have him killed after seeing Jake wont join his insane hit squadhence the talk on the phone.and telling Jake what he should tell the DA,just that line,gives Hoyt a false sense of security. That or improvisation or he had planned to kill the rookie who gets let in on details regarding false search warrants and murder etc.,a temporary partner in crime who is in the dark so the whole thing rns smoothly and if Jake talks,hes busted for dope in his bloodbut Alonzo saw he was an honest cop to the bone and that threat wouldnt keep him from talking.
I think he decided it after the murder on Roger when he knew Jake wasnt 100% onboard or even 13%. But the4 speech is for Alonzos sake,not Jake. He is justifyimg being necessary evil,doing what had to be dobne and you get the feeling that he means all of that,he did right. He could be talking to a mirror. The hit was ordered. -
NatalieFan — 11 years ago(June 16, 2014 08:57 AM)
The hit on roger was only "ordered" because he TOLD the three wise men that he knew someone that they could "tax"(aka seize only "3mil" instead of 4mil, keep 1mil). They gave him the go ahead. As much as Alonzo wants to pretend he was just following orders, he knows he murdered Roger both by pulling the trigger and by suggesting the hit.
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csuperman — 13 years ago(February 03, 2013 05:57 PM)
He had decided to kill Jake the moment he refused to take the money. The conversation over the phone was real. Seeing how capable Jake was in the ally way, saving the girl, had Alonzo think of him as an extremely valuable team member, if corruptible, but a formidable enemy if otherwise.
Enjoy your egg whites. -
bigmember25 — 13 years ago(March 09, 2013 11:54 PM)
He knew that he might have to kill Jake the whole time. He didn't officially decide to follow through with it until after the speech he gave him in the car. He never really wanted to because he saw potential in Jake and wanted him as part of his crew. During the speech he knew that Jake had too much dirt on him and was too ethical to change. He didn't go through with Paul's plan for a number of reasons. For one they hadn't planned it out. For two, they needed Jake to be alive because he was the one who "killed" Roger. Alonzo knew that he could just dump Jake on the Latinos if it came down to it. Since he had that option there was no reason to complicate and potentially screw up his plans for heisting Roger by a last minute hard to explain head shot to a cop.
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lukekingjohnson — 13 years ago(March 28, 2013 04:04 PM)
Alonzo was a lowdown ruthless vato. He was going to kill Jake that exact way because that was part of his plan, He had been planning it all week after all. His undoing was underestimating Jake, which from what I saw, appeared to be the person who he thought would be the least trouble.
Jakes morals saved him. If he hadn't saved that girl from being raped he would've never of left Smileys house.
I think Alonzo played his plan out exactly as he had it drawn up on the chalk board. If he had took on a more corrupt officer, not Jake, then he would have succeeded. -
BrohmaBull007 — 12 years ago(July 02, 2013 04:21 AM)
OP, I choose #3. Alonzo had all his plans set in motion to pay off the Russians but then the department stuck him with some rookie.
Jake was a means to an end. He needed someone clean to pin the illegal bust and murder of Roger on. Alonzo or one of his boys cant take that hit. He had Jake sized up from the beginning all he needed to do was keep Jake from walking away before Roger's death. After that, Jake was expendable.
So I say Alonzo planned to kill him from the second he was assigned the rookie.Jordan > Kobe
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badge-3 — 12 years ago(September 07, 2013 06:54 AM)
BrohmaBull, I strongly disagree.
Alonzo knew from the very beginning that he MAY have to kill him but did not officialy decide to do so until Jake turned the gun on Alonzo at Roger's house.
I will try to explain in depth how this is true and will use facts from the movie to support this.
At the beginning of the movie when they are driving after having breakfast, Alonzo tells Jake "You could be number 6 if you act right". This statement supports the idea that if Jake had shown and proved himself to be more ruthless or in Alonzo's words, " a wolf and not a sheep", He would have allowed Jake to join the team with Mark, Paul and Tim.
Alonzo sees potential in Jake when Jake looks at Alonzo and says "I will do whatever you want me to do." This is exactly what Alonzo wants to hear and gives him a green light to begin testing Jake's vulnerability by forcing him to smoke PCP. (And of course to blackmail him later if necessary). When Jake first refuses to smoke the PCP, Alonzo demands Jake to get out of the car. If Jake had left, this would be the end of it. Jake had not witnessed anything at this point and they both knew if Jake, who was a rookie, had complained of being held at gunpoint by Alonzo he would be laughed at and probably fired. However when Jake gives in to smoking the PCP, Alonzo sees this as potential for Jake to be influenced by him and still become part of the team.
The second test and opportunity for Jake to escape the situation comes after the quick neighborhood shootout outside of Sandman's house. Alonzo has a quick discussion with Jake on the side of the highway and once again gives him the opportunity to walk away. Nothing at this point has been done which would be worth having Jake killed for. Again, Jake gives in to Alonzo's words and gets back into ths car. Little does he know, this was his last chance to walk away alive.
(Also keep in mind that Jake has PCP in his system at this point which explains why Alonzo is not threatened by the possibility of Jake walking away and reporting Alonzo. Alonzo knows only Jake will be negatively effected if he decides to do so by having his blood sent to the lab. The viewers are made aware of this later on.)
Now lets talk about the armed robbery at Roger's house. This is the ultimate test of Jake's ruthlessness. First, he denies taking the money. However this is not enough reason for Alonzo to have Jake killed although it does raise red flags for Alonzo. Second, Jake refuses to shoot Roger. This was yet another test for Jake that Alonzo was expectinb him to fail since he already had many concerns about him being able to handle the job. Again, this is not Alonzo's signal to have Jake killed. The last and final straw is when Jake refuses to take blame for the death of Roger and turns the gun on Alonzo. At this point it is very clear that Jake will NOT be one of Alonzo's pets nor give into his authority. He is way too much of a liability and can not be trusted. He has also witnessed way too much at this point to walk away alive. Alonzo's now knows he has to get rid of Jake. "I've been planning this all week, son." Little does Jake know this includes Alonzo's plot to have Jake killed if he can't be trusted. The threat to have Jake's blood sent to the lab no longer holds any weight and Alonzo knows it would not be enough if Jake decides to confess what really happened. He only makes this threat because he knows it will shut Jake up and prevent him from talking long enough until he can get him to Smiley's house.
The reason why Alonzo rejects Paul's suggestion to kill Jake on the spot is clear. Soon after sweet talking Jake from the couch he says "In 10 seconds this place will be overrun by blue suits." This was not nearly enough time to kill Jake, set up a believable crime scene as well as having 5 different officers giving matching and consistent statements. There is also no need because Alonzo has other plans for Jake as we hear him confirm the hit on Jake when he says to Smiley "make sure that bath tub is cleaned".
The conversation in the car is more for Alonzo's own sake rather than Jake's. The hit in Jake has already been made but Alonzo still feels the need to justify his own actions and the reason he is the way he is. It is also possible that he still needed Jake to give his statement to the D.A before having him killed. This is suggested by the unseen time lapse and nightfall by the time they arrive at Smiley's. Alonzo knew if him and his crew were going to blame a rookie on killing Roger, it may raise suspicion having him killed before giving a statement.
So to answer your question OP, the decision to go through with having Jake killed was at Roger's house. Had Jake taken the money, shot Roger and/or willingly took the blame for Roger's death, he would have no reason to get rid of him whether he was a rookie or not. In the end it all came down to how ruthless Jake would turn out to be.
For weeks, Alonzo had plans for Jake to become part of the tea -
procreate — 12 years ago(February 01, 2014 06:59 AM)
just make sure that bathtub is clean, homey.
WOW. I had seen this movie a million times and this is the first time I pay attention to this.
I always thought that was something not related to the events comming, just Alonzo taking to the phone.
Having this in mind, then I think that Alonzo want to kill him before anything, since the beginning. He want to use Jake and then dispose him.
Jake said "I will do anything you want me to do", then Alonzo has green light, to show him how the game is.
And he gives him clear signals. Alonzo shows a lil and see how he reacts, and then he continues. Till the point of no return, when they came to the Rogers house and ask him to kill Roger.
Alonzo said "I've been planning it all week, son.". And that includes, making him smoke pcp to kill him.
All of these make you think that Alonzo was plaining all of this beforehand, more because the russians want his ass, so he needs money fast and someone disposable to complete the job. If Jake is good with all the stuff he does, then Alonzo wont kill him, because he worth but the kid was dead since the beginning.
BUT MAYBE
Alonzo knew the mexican's cousin. Thats why he leaves her to go. Remember when Alonzo said "Now, you say your cousins from where?" and the girl reply "From Hillside Trece!" then Alonzo said "Tell your cousins to get your back". He knows her, she dont but he does, more when she said where her cousins are from.
Then why Alonzo would kill him using specifically by those mexicans?. Why would kill him AFTER what happend to Roger? Woulnt be so evident that the rookie guy, who just enter to that division get murder? Woudlnt be VERY suspicious?. Just the same day of a big fish get killed a rookie gets killed in another place by some "random" mexicans?.
Maybe it was a test, like Alonzo said. If he survive to this, like he did with the two guys alone (he saw something on him), then he is one of the team, not yet corrupted but someone that worth to have. -
liquidsouther — 10 years ago(August 17, 2015 04:13 AM)
I think Alonzo wanted to kill Jake from the very beginning of his plan, but was not, IMHO, exactly sure when, especially after he immediately found out that this was no ordinary, corruptable rookie. I like to think that he finally set the things in motion after Roger's murder.
ALTOBELLO YOU beep!! -
ChocolateFrankenstein — 10 years ago(August 26, 2015 11:20 AM)
My guess is Alonzo decided to kill Jake when Jake first refused to take the drug money. Once Jake refused him a second time that was the last straw for Alonzo.
When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness. -
jawsfan007 — 10 years ago(August 26, 2015 06:00 PM)
Alonzo thought Jake would turn, but after refusing the money and Jake not really going along with roger's murder. Before he gets in the car to give the speech, you can hear him talking to smiley "make sure the tub is clean. "
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Sturm_Liouville — 10 years ago(November 01, 2015 11:58 AM)
It was after jake decided not to kill the drug dealer and pointed a gun to alonzos head etc. You can hear alonzo talking to hillside treses or whatever in the car before the speech. He mentions to the person to make sure to clean his bathtub. This is where the gang took jake to blow his brains out with a shotgun.