I don't see how anyone can think Simon was supernatural
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ChanceX74 — 11 years ago(June 23, 2014 08:19 AM)
You would prefer, perhaps, spoon-fed narratives? There are plenty out there for you to pick from should that be your fancy.
This may be, in your opinion, the most tired cliche in film making right now but it should be noted that this film is not from right now nor was ambiguity commonplace in film productions that weren't foreign in 2001.
Holding an older film to today's trends in order to label them as part of something that wasn't commonplace at their inception is interesting if not logistically flawed. -
novimovieman — 12 years ago(August 10, 2013 09:13 AM)
Allowing people to have their own opinion means:
If this movie is about someone getting "possessed by Simon," then this is an awesome and intelligent movie.
If it's about psychologically falling apart, then this is an awful and stupid movie.
"The unexamined life is not worth living for man." Socrates/Plato -
Reallusion1 — 12 years ago(August 24, 2013 10:43 PM)
Simple. Simons voice spoke in the same roon that Mary's chair was in. The tapes of the old events played as the new events occurred. The demon said it prowled on the weak and wounded. I understand that you think its all symbolic, but the same reasons you think it was symbolic could easily point to something demonic. Many people seem to hate anything spiritual because of their personal ideals. Neither synopsis is better than the other.
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vojkan087 — 12 years ago(August 30, 2013 08:05 AM)
How closer can we be to true demons than some psychiatric disorders, like psychopathy, SPD or DID.
Isn't mental disorder something that ''lives'' only in weak or wounded?! Even those with genetic predisposition to psychopatic behavior usually have to have a social trigger for them to become predators.
I think this movie is exactly about thatThose who claim this movie is a ghost story is claming it to be shallow Halloween scare flick, and it is so much moreGeneration obsessed with Vampire diaries, wizzards and witches can't grasp the deeper meanings in movies, or true horror of mental ilness, I get itbut you could try sometimes. -
Reallusion1 — 12 years ago(August 30, 2013 12:49 PM)
A subtle demonic possession isn't cheap. Its not nearly on the same level as some simplistic slasher. I'm easily open to the notion of psychological causes in movies, but with the undeniable supernatural implications, this seems to be demonic. I'm not the one failing to see how demonic influence goes hand in hand with severe mental damage.
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kurt-2000 — 12 years ago(September 05, 2013 08:05 PM)
There were too many coincidences occurring through out the movie for it to simply being a movie about people having mental breakdowns. Generator outside going down right when people were in key locations? That's an entity setting up everyone at the same time. Kid just happens to be in the tunnel when the generator goes down, and the tape machine hadn't played Session 9 yet. Everyone was in a critical spot.
Mary's sub-conscience entity would have had to possess Gordy, or Simon was the murderous entity. So this was a movie about a paranormal attack on Gordy.
At first glace at this thread, I thought the OP was suggesting that the security guard set up the story line of the film when he said: "the former inmates do return here" But that would suggest Gordy was a former inmate released back out into society, gets married, then murders his wife and baby, puts silver dollars on the floor to set up one of crew members, happens to turn off the generator just at the exact right time when everyone was in place, just happened to know two of his crew were in tunnels when the generator was turned off, just happen to set Mary's session box in a place his crew member would find it, etc. -
kinaiscute — 12 years ago(September 07, 2013 08:33 AM)
Exactly! You just summed up exactly why this is not simply a psychological movie. What stood out to me was how Mary's other personalities claimed they lived in her eyes and mouth indicating that they were exclusive to Mary. Simon spoke as if he did this all the time with many different people. I don't know how anyone can deny the supernatural aspects of this movie.
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kurt-2000 — 12 years ago(September 08, 2013 07:25 AM)
You neglected to debunk all the coincidences I was referring to, so you need to go back and re-read. No one turned off the generator just at the right time, when everyone was in a vulnerable position at the facility. That was paranormal. Simon was an entity that possessed people and preyed on the weak like all evil entities do. Should we discuss all the coincidences that occurred that couldn't have been created by people?
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beierfilms — 12 years ago(September 08, 2013 04:33 PM)
I always find threads like this interesting because they seem to go in contrast to the intent of the movie. There are a great many films which drop hints as to more than one possible explanation but leave the final choice up to the viewer. This is clearly one of those.
Yes, most things in the film point to Gordon being crazy and Simon being symbolic but there are plenty of odd coincidences that are clearly meant to get the view to CONSIDER that Simon might be something more. This film is effective because it cleverly walks that line where the audience is unsure of what Simon is and why Gordon murders his wife. The "wounded and weak" bit is a great example of this. It can certainly be read symbolically BUT it's certainly interesting that both Gordon and Mary were LITERALLY wounded before they went nuts and were taken over by Simon.
According to the wiki page, the filmmakers actually filmed footage of a homeless woman living in the hospital who was responsible for a lot of the "super-natural" phenominon. When they finished editing the movie, they realized that this took away from a lot of the tension so they cut her out to allow more of a possibility of Simon as a super-natural being.
Given this, it's odd that you are so against anyone noticing a touch of the supernatural here. -
lazarillo — 12 years ago(September 08, 2013 08:11 PM)
It is ambiguous, but if you notice NO ONE IS LISTENING to the tapes when Simon starts talking. The voice that talks to Gordon doesn't necessarily have to be THE Simon that the tapes refer to when Mike is listening to them earlier. So if Simon is not the EXACT same entity as what Gordon hears, it doesn't have to be supernatural and may just be symbolic.
If he is the same entity though, it would be supernatural. The key is whether "Session 9" is really playing when there's no one there to hear it or if the whole thing is in Gordon's head (as half the movie is by that point). The "Session 9" does refer to Mary and her other alter egos, but since Gordon was hanging around the hospital at night, he COULD have listened to the tapes himself and incorporated them into his own insanity.
I think it's very intentionally unresolved. It's kind of like another great scene in "The Shining" where the ghosts seem to somehow open the pantry door, but there are other possible explanations. . . -
wishiwasapopstar — 12 years ago(September 16, 2013 09:41 AM)
I thought they pretty much told you it was supernatural at the very end of the Simon interview. Simon says he lives inside the weak and the wounded, then the psychologist asks Simon why Mary listened to him and he replies with something along the lines of "Because they all do." Implying that he regularly convinces people to commit acts of murder.
Seemed pretty supernatural to me. -
vojkan087 — 12 years ago(September 16, 2013 04:05 PM)
Not quite.
It was a metaphorein other words, agressive alter ego lives in weak and wounded people, where it develops to protect the original identity from being hurt further.That is D.I.D. and that is why it is such a complex diagnosis, some would say controversial.
Also, you can hear Billy, protective but not agressive alter ego, saying he lives in the eyes.
Princess, her childish alter ego, lives in the mouth. -
vojkan087 — 12 years ago(September 17, 2013 05:23 AM)
''Billy is the reasoning side of the brain, Princess is the emotional side. Simon is the sub-conscience taken over by an entity.''
And this makes more sense to you than>
Billy is the reasoning side of the brain, Princess is the emotional side. Simon is the agressive, destructive side - enraged with those who hurt the original id.
How does this sound impossible to you?!
I am impressed by your attempt to twist the logic to fit the ghost story -
kurt-2000 — 12 years ago(September 23, 2013 08:38 PM)
Vojkan: I'm impressed that you avoided my challenge for someone to explain how the generator could go down right when everyone was in their most vulnerable position, not to mention just before Mike was going to listen to Session 9 just before the power went down. Coincidence? That's a pretty big one. Not to mention all the other unexplained coincidences.
Left brain = creative side
Right brain = analytic side
Sub-conscience = inner minds eye that can't be controlled by an individual, unless possessed by an entity.
This isn't complicated Voj -
MovieBeth — 12 years ago(September 30, 2013 01:35 PM)
The movie leaves the end game up to the individual to decide what exactly was the driving force. My own interpretation is it was not a demon or possession, but that the hospital building was the nail in the coffin for the asbestos crew. Was there something more to it then just madness? Yeah, the film gives off that vibe, but I don't think it had to do with possession or demons.
If all had been answered for us, then this film would not have achieved the following that is has for the past 13 yrs. -
kurt-2000 — 12 years ago(September 30, 2013 09:23 PM)
But remember the generator going down right at a point in time when everyone in the building was in a different location and vulnerable. The down generator is also the reason Mike didn't get a chance to listen to Session 9. Way too convenient for the killer. Had to be demonic possession.
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kurt-2000 — 12 years ago(September 30, 2013 09:23 PM)
But remember the generator going down right at a point in time when everyone in the building was in a different location and vulnerable. The down generator is also the reason Mike didn't get a chance to listen to Session 9. Way too convenient for the killer. Had to be demonic possession.
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vojkan087 — 12 years ago(October 05, 2013 04:20 PM)
I avoided the generator thing because it just wasn't a proper argument. It is a dramatic effect, artistic element to bring up the atmosphere, and it eventually did nothingso why would it be important. Did all of them die during the blackout? Do you have any reason to believe the blackout is a work of a ghost?
As I said, power went down in my building just as I was walking down the stairsmore than once. Was ghost trying to kill me, again and again? Am I living in a haunted building?
What other unexplained coincidences?
I, on the other hand, am impressed by your attempt to sound all scientific in explaining to be 101 of brain function while using the ''unless possessed by an entity'' sentenceWOW! ''Entity'' does sound much more serious than ''ghost'' or ''demon''.
THERE ARE NO GHOSTS THAT CUT POWER, just deal with it.