I don't see how anyone can think Simon was supernatural
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kurt-2000 — 12 years ago(September 08, 2013 07:25 AM)
You neglected to debunk all the coincidences I was referring to, so you need to go back and re-read. No one turned off the generator just at the right time, when everyone was in a vulnerable position at the facility. That was paranormal. Simon was an entity that possessed people and preyed on the weak like all evil entities do. Should we discuss all the coincidences that occurred that couldn't have been created by people?
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beierfilms — 12 years ago(September 08, 2013 04:33 PM)
I always find threads like this interesting because they seem to go in contrast to the intent of the movie. There are a great many films which drop hints as to more than one possible explanation but leave the final choice up to the viewer. This is clearly one of those.
Yes, most things in the film point to Gordon being crazy and Simon being symbolic but there are plenty of odd coincidences that are clearly meant to get the view to CONSIDER that Simon might be something more. This film is effective because it cleverly walks that line where the audience is unsure of what Simon is and why Gordon murders his wife. The "wounded and weak" bit is a great example of this. It can certainly be read symbolically BUT it's certainly interesting that both Gordon and Mary were LITERALLY wounded before they went nuts and were taken over by Simon.
According to the wiki page, the filmmakers actually filmed footage of a homeless woman living in the hospital who was responsible for a lot of the "super-natural" phenominon. When they finished editing the movie, they realized that this took away from a lot of the tension so they cut her out to allow more of a possibility of Simon as a super-natural being.
Given this, it's odd that you are so against anyone noticing a touch of the supernatural here. -
lazarillo — 12 years ago(September 08, 2013 08:11 PM)
It is ambiguous, but if you notice NO ONE IS LISTENING to the tapes when Simon starts talking. The voice that talks to Gordon doesn't necessarily have to be THE Simon that the tapes refer to when Mike is listening to them earlier. So if Simon is not the EXACT same entity as what Gordon hears, it doesn't have to be supernatural and may just be symbolic.
If he is the same entity though, it would be supernatural. The key is whether "Session 9" is really playing when there's no one there to hear it or if the whole thing is in Gordon's head (as half the movie is by that point). The "Session 9" does refer to Mary and her other alter egos, but since Gordon was hanging around the hospital at night, he COULD have listened to the tapes himself and incorporated them into his own insanity.
I think it's very intentionally unresolved. It's kind of like another great scene in "The Shining" where the ghosts seem to somehow open the pantry door, but there are other possible explanations. . . -
wishiwasapopstar — 12 years ago(September 16, 2013 09:41 AM)
I thought they pretty much told you it was supernatural at the very end of the Simon interview. Simon says he lives inside the weak and the wounded, then the psychologist asks Simon why Mary listened to him and he replies with something along the lines of "Because they all do." Implying that he regularly convinces people to commit acts of murder.
Seemed pretty supernatural to me. -
vojkan087 — 12 years ago(September 16, 2013 04:05 PM)
Not quite.
It was a metaphorein other words, agressive alter ego lives in weak and wounded people, where it develops to protect the original identity from being hurt further.That is D.I.D. and that is why it is such a complex diagnosis, some would say controversial.
Also, you can hear Billy, protective but not agressive alter ego, saying he lives in the eyes.
Princess, her childish alter ego, lives in the mouth. -
vojkan087 — 12 years ago(September 17, 2013 05:23 AM)
''Billy is the reasoning side of the brain, Princess is the emotional side. Simon is the sub-conscience taken over by an entity.''
And this makes more sense to you than>
Billy is the reasoning side of the brain, Princess is the emotional side. Simon is the agressive, destructive side - enraged with those who hurt the original id.
How does this sound impossible to you?!
I am impressed by your attempt to twist the logic to fit the ghost story -
kurt-2000 — 12 years ago(September 23, 2013 08:38 PM)
Vojkan: I'm impressed that you avoided my challenge for someone to explain how the generator could go down right when everyone was in their most vulnerable position, not to mention just before Mike was going to listen to Session 9 just before the power went down. Coincidence? That's a pretty big one. Not to mention all the other unexplained coincidences.
Left brain = creative side
Right brain = analytic side
Sub-conscience = inner minds eye that can't be controlled by an individual, unless possessed by an entity.
This isn't complicated Voj -
MovieBeth — 12 years ago(September 30, 2013 01:35 PM)
The movie leaves the end game up to the individual to decide what exactly was the driving force. My own interpretation is it was not a demon or possession, but that the hospital building was the nail in the coffin for the asbestos crew. Was there something more to it then just madness? Yeah, the film gives off that vibe, but I don't think it had to do with possession or demons.
If all had been answered for us, then this film would not have achieved the following that is has for the past 13 yrs. -
kurt-2000 — 12 years ago(September 30, 2013 09:23 PM)
But remember the generator going down right at a point in time when everyone in the building was in a different location and vulnerable. The down generator is also the reason Mike didn't get a chance to listen to Session 9. Way too convenient for the killer. Had to be demonic possession.
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kurt-2000 — 12 years ago(September 30, 2013 09:23 PM)
But remember the generator going down right at a point in time when everyone in the building was in a different location and vulnerable. The down generator is also the reason Mike didn't get a chance to listen to Session 9. Way too convenient for the killer. Had to be demonic possession.
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vojkan087 — 12 years ago(October 05, 2013 04:20 PM)
I avoided the generator thing because it just wasn't a proper argument. It is a dramatic effect, artistic element to bring up the atmosphere, and it eventually did nothingso why would it be important. Did all of them die during the blackout? Do you have any reason to believe the blackout is a work of a ghost?
As I said, power went down in my building just as I was walking down the stairsmore than once. Was ghost trying to kill me, again and again? Am I living in a haunted building?
What other unexplained coincidences?
I, on the other hand, am impressed by your attempt to sound all scientific in explaining to be 101 of brain function while using the ''unless possessed by an entity'' sentenceWOW! ''Entity'' does sound much more serious than ''ghost'' or ''demon''.
THERE ARE NO GHOSTS THAT CUT POWER, just deal with it. -
kurt-2000 — 12 years ago(January 31, 2014 06:13 AM)
THERE ARE NO GHOSTS THAT CUT POWER, just deal with it.
Why would the writers put this scene in a key location of the story line. You make no sense. Not to mention all of the crew members being in vulnerable areas of the building when the power goes off. It's amazing how much of this story line you ignore to support your own views. Still waiting for you to explain how all the coins got into the wall, and who would know this character would just happen to be walking down the hall. More story line you decided to ignore? Writers place this information into stories for a reason. -
ChanceX74 — 11 years ago(June 23, 2014 09:09 AM)
There is also the matter of Gordon wandering off in a daze and winding up sitting, spaced-out, at the potter's field. Inside, at that exact moment, Mike finds the Mary Hobbs file stamped with "Deceased #444" on the folder. We cut to Gordon talking on the mobile to what is presumably dead air (since it is later revealed what transpired at his home before this point) as the camera pans down and reveals an overturned broken grave marker right where he's sitting. The number on it? (Gasp!) 444.
People can argue dramatic effect all they like, this specific scene is just a little too convenient and too coincidental to imply anything but some sort of meta-connection to the events as they are unfolding in the narrative as opposed to some rather in-your-face symbolism.
In order to maintain the dramatic effect theory, it would have to be a tight knit and coincidental constellation of events placing him at the grave right at the moment Mike finds the file purely for the benefit of the audience. In order to push the theory that that Gordon had access to all the tapes and files and then incorporated them into his psychosis, one would have to ignore that we are shown Mike being the only one to find anything pertaining to Hobbs or insist that Gordon had unfettered access to them off screen (then also ignore that, even during the revelation of unseen events near the end of the film, any such scenes of Gordon having access seem notably absent).
Those arguing that no one was there to hear the Session 9 tape are conveniently forgetting that Mike went down there to specifically listen to it, had it set up and starting to play, before the generator issue removed him from the room. Of course the tape would continue playing from that point when the power came back on back on if it's already been set to do so; it isn't going to pause itself waiting for someone to come along and hear it.
As for the cut homeless woman, it was always intended to be a red-herring but they rightfully cut it because it would have disrupted tension. There is even dialogue by the security guard in the very beginning about how former patients would find their way back there because they had nowhere else to go. The audience was expected to assume events were being caused by a mentally disturbed prodigal patient before the narrative revealed, or at least inferred, otherwise. -
kurt-2000 — 11 years ago(July 08, 2014 10:52 PM)
Those arguing that no one was there to hear the Session 9 tape are conveniently forgetting that Mike went down there to specifically listen to it, had it set up and starting to play, before the generator issue removed him from the room. Of course the tape would continue playing from that point when the power came back on back on if it's already been set to do so; it isn't going to pause itself waiting for someone to come along and hear it.
That means nothing. Maybe the entity didn't care if the recording came on later, just as long as human ears didn't listen to it. Clearly enough evidence is written into the script for two reasons. Either an entity was the driving force for the murders, or the writer/director wanted the paranormal to be a STRONG possibility for audience theories. For anyone to suggest the paranormal is 'out of the question', is just being dishonest. period. -
ChanceX74 — 11 years ago(July 31, 2014 09:31 AM)
That means nothing. Maybe the entity didn't care if the recording came on later
You misunderstand me. That no one was there to hear the Session 9 tape is a moot point. It's moot because the power went out when it had been set to play and would have automatically started once the power came on again anyway. that's straight cause/effect.
I'm not sure what you mean about an entity not caring; that's what was going to happen regardless:
Start tape.
Power out - Tape off.
Power on - Tape on.
This would occur no matter who was or wasn't in the room and would even occur with no one in the room so it really can't be used to validate or dispute anything. -
kurt-2000 — 11 years ago(August 13, 2014 09:07 PM)
This is just my personal opinion, but I think the point you just made above supports my premise that an entity is at work, or the writer/director wouldn't have included: Start tape.
Power out - Tape off.
Power on - Tape on.
I'm not trying to second guess your views, but filming the final session after the power came on was the chilling event found in most paranormal horror films. I'm not suggesting that there's anything wrong with people believing that this is a simple murder mystery with no evil entity, but so much is included in this film that leaves viewers with the impression that an entity is behind the voice.
So could people on this board at least agree that viewers were baited by the director to believe that two theories about murder motives could be valid. -
ChanceX74 — 11 years ago(August 19, 2014 07:39 AM)
I believe this is the point at which we arrive at running in circles. I'll keep saying the tape proves nothing because the player, once set to play, is only at the mercy of the entity called electricity. You will keep insisting that this somehow proves something completely unrelated to whether the player is receiving electrical power or not.
So could people on this board at least agree that viewers were baited by the director to believe that two theories about murder motives could be valid.
I believe I have stated this very thing on more than one occasion; neither premise can be entirely ruled out and, honestly, an argument could be made that both exist simultaneously. -
haunt_freak — 11 years ago(January 21, 2015 12:40 PM)
Not necessarily. I'm an atheist and I can entertain ideas of supernatural nature. It's called suspension of disbelief.
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