A biblical scene that I would have liked to see in this….
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mamu2 — 9 years ago(January 03, 2017 06:26 AM)
His anger was pure and completely justified
What about his act of violence?
John 2:15 "Jesus made a whip from some ropes and drove them all out of the Temple. He drove out the sheep and cattle, scattered the money changers' coins over the floor, and turned over their tables." -
marty-130-840283 — 9 years ago(January 03, 2017 07:30 AM)
What is your problem, with Jesus? Do you think you are better than Jesus?
What about his act of violence?
John 2:15 "Jesus made a whip from some ropes and drove them all out of the Temple. He drove out the sheep and cattle, scattered the money changers' coins over the floor, and turned over their tables."
First, we need to understand that Jesus wasnt throwing an uncontrolled tantrum. Most scholars agree that this was a calculated prophetic, symbolic act on Jesus part. Based on Old Testament prophecy as well as the widespread knowledge of the corrupt priestly system, most Jews of Jesus day believed the coming Messiah was going to restore the temple and make it Gods house once again. By cleansing the temple, therefore, Jesus was demonstrating that he was the Messiah. He was also symbolically revealing Yahwehs displeasure with the religious establishment of his day and symbolically acting out Yahwehs reclaiming of his house.
It seems the masses understood the symbolism of Jesus actions. While his behavior enraged the religious leaders, the people responded by flocking to him (Mark 11:18).
Second, and closely related to this, most scholars agree that Jesus engaged in this aggressive behavior to force the hand of religious and political authorities against him. After all, he had come to Jerusalem with the expressed intention of being executed. Up to this point the Jewish authorities were concerned about Jesus, but they refrain from acting on their concern because of Jesus popularity with the crowds. By exposing their corruption, Jesus was now explicitly threatening their authority. And this forced them to start plotting his arrest and execution.
So, we again see that Jesus temple cleansing wasnt a spontaneous outburst of anger. It was a premeditated, strategic act.
Third, and most importantly, while Jesus behavior was certainly aggressive, theres no indication whatsoever that it involved violence. True, Jesus turned tables over. But this was to put an immediate stop to the corrupt commerce that was taking place as well as perhaps to free the caged animals. Theres no mention of any person or animal getting hurt in the process.
And yes, Jesus made a whip. But theres no mention of him using it to strike any animal, let alone human. Cracking a loud whip has always been the most effective means of controlling the movement of large groups of animals. Jesus wanted to create a stampede of animals out of the temple, and theres no reason to conclude he used the whip for any other purpose than this. -
mamu2 — 9 years ago(January 03, 2017 08:03 AM)
Jesus wanted to create a stampede of animals out of the temple, and theres no reason to conclude he used the whip for any other purpose than this.
He also used it to drive out a crowd of people. Can you honestly deduce that everyone would have fled if it was clear that Jesus didn't intend on striking anyone?
But theres no mention of him using it to strike any animal, let alone human.
Likewise it doesn't say that no animal or person wasn't struck by the whip. -
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marty-130-840283 — 9 years ago(January 03, 2017 11:41 PM)
The only thing I care about, is saving people from Hell when they die (you could die unexpectedly tommorow)
Do you believe in Jesus, that he was the son of God, died, then rose again and ascended to heaven? No debate, just a simple question. -
raif-1 — 9 years ago(January 04, 2017 03:43 AM)
marty, do you not believe all will be saved even if they follow their own respective beliefs especially if they're sincere about them? I say this because since you're more attuned to your particular beliefs and sincerely believe in it, others that are not of your faith are also true in this instance, right? It looks to me like its fair game in beliefs, don't you think? Of course if an individual actually believe in a particular belief but purposely ignore or not follow it, then he or she might get what he or she deserves.
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marty-130-840283 — 9 years ago(January 04, 2017 04:28 AM)
Hi Raif, good question. Unfortunately, all the 2000 man made religions on earth will not get a person to Heaven, no matter how sincere.
Jesus is the only way.
Not one way, but the only way.
I didn't realise it was so simple.
Believe in Jesus, and the instant you believe, you're guaranteed entrance into Heaven and nothing and no one can ever take it away from you, no matter what you do, or how bad you sin.
All it takes, is belief in Jesus. God made it so simple.
So thats why I worry about you Raif, we both worship the same God, but Muslims deny that Jesus himself was God (part of the Holy Trinity, 1 God in 3 persons)
I hope I can change your mind
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raif-1 — 9 years ago(January 04, 2017 05:05 AM)
Thank you marty but if I follow you, I would be lying to myself and worse of all I would be believing blindly. Imho, this is unacceptable. The situation you described as either black or white does not seem to be practical in this world with many beliefs. In reality imo it is not people's fault for not believing in Christianity or in any religion for the matter especially if they are not born into it, not exposed to it in a convincing manner etc.
Having said that, I too hope that you see the Islamic way but it is not my say that you will not be saved even with your beliefs because I give you the benefit of the doubt that you are sincere (with your beliefs) and it is GOD's will. I see this simpler. -
marty-130-840283 — 9 years ago(January 04, 2017 06:54 AM)
but if I follow you, I would be lying to myself and worse of all I would be believing blindly
your not following me. youre following the Bible. this isnt my personal opinion, or belief, I am explaining what the Bible says.
You would not be beliving blindly, we dont believe in Jesus blindly, we believe because of the Bible. That is not blind belief. Its belief of what the Bible says. -
mamu2 — 9 years ago(January 04, 2017 07:27 AM)
Its belief of what the Bible says.
Except the Bible does not explicitly state God exists as a Trinity, or that Jesus is God the Son. Your stance is based on others' interpretations on what they think the Bible says, not what the Bible itself actually says.
I do get where you are coming from. I held that same stance myself for a very long time, until I actually started reading and examining what it really says. And rectifying it against what I was apparently erroneously taught. -
raif-1 — 9 years ago(January 04, 2017 07:51 AM)
No, I did not say that Christians believe in Jesus blindly especially if they are sincere about it. It was meant only to me. I would believe blindly if I were to follow because I already have a belief (unless for some reason my beliefs changed) so no need to follow something I'm not tuned to.
Also the bible may mean differently to different sects. For example to the unitarians, the Bible appear to them saying the absolute oneness of GOD but to the trinitarians, some verses appear to support the 3 person in one belief. In the end of the day, one just follow what one think is right based upon a set of prior beliefs and if the beliefs are sincere, who's to say they are wrong or right except GOD. -
mamu2 — 9 years ago(January 04, 2017 06:13 AM)
we both worship the same God,
Most people worship the god of the region they or their parents were born into, most believing that their god is the one true god and all others are false. You don't find that a little bit curious? Or coincidental? -
marty-130-840283 — 9 years ago(January 04, 2017 06:52 AM)
Most people worship the god of the region they or their parents were born into, most believing that their god is the one true god and all others are false. You don't find that a little bit curious? Or coincidental?
no it makes perfect sense. Every human being since Adam and Eve, was born with a sin nature, seperated from God.
But inside humanity, we feel the need for God (in all the different cultures as you said)
and humans interpret that, in whatever country they live in etc.
The one true God, is the God of the Bible (obviously) -
mamu2 — 9 years ago(January 04, 2017 07:23 AM)
But unless you are Christian by birth or conversion, you can not get to the one true God. Even if you believe in the same God as a non-Christian, your path is the wrong one because of where you were born or what your parents believe and taught you to believe. You honestly don't find that curious?
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raif-1 — 9 years ago(January 04, 2017 08:05 AM)
Mamu, I think most Christians do find it curious but perhaps they can't get around the fact that their doctrine saying salvation is only through Jesus. However when they see the reality of the world with the myriad of beliefs, for some of them something clicked. That is why the Pope has said that salvation can also be for others but it is hard to change 2000 years of belief. If there were previous Nicene councils to decide upon doctrine matters, perhaps there could be another to decide on salvation?
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Navaros — 9 years ago(February 01, 2017 09:29 AM)
That is why the Pope has said that salvation can also be for others
The pope said that - and many, many, many other things like it - because he is Satan's right-hand man and biggest advocate.
Citing the pope as an authority on God or morality is equivalent to citing adolf hitler as an authority on God or morality - either way, it's an inherently asinine premise given each man's unfathomable evil.
"Science creates fictions to explain facts" Gilman -
Navaros — 9 years ago(February 01, 2017 09:34 AM)
it is hard to change 2000 years of belief.
God changes not, and neither do his morals.
Likewise, godly people's morals do not change either. Since a truly godly person's morals are perfect (however, that does not mean that the truly godly person will always live up to those morals 100% of the time), then the only way they
could
change is by becoming evil/apostate.
perhaps there could be another to decide on salvation?
God, not ungodly men, decides upon salvation, and He made the one and only way to salvation crystal clear in His Word.
"Science creates fictions to explain facts" Gilman