First time I've seen this, so many questions!
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marty-130-840283 — 9 years ago(January 11, 2017 03:05 PM)
That would be very appealing to people who wish to get into Heaven, but not be a good person while they are alive. That's an immoral belief system.
its not appealing. You wont do it. Millions wont do it.
How is it appealing? If it was appealing, everyone would do it.
But people dont want to be held accountable to a higher power, admit they are a bad person etc.
Noone is good, while they are alive. No one. Not 1. Since Adam and Eve.
That is the doctrine of the Bible.
An immoral belief system? Humans are immoral, you, me, all of us.
Obviously, when you begin to believe in Jesus, you will "want" to be a good person, from that moment on (after belief and trust in Jesus) you begin a journey of trying to be a good person. If you say "I believe in Jesus" and then go out and sin (murder, whatever) obviously your belief is not genuine. Genuine belief changes a person. -
raif-1 — 9 years ago(January 12, 2017 02:25 AM)
its not appealing. You wont do it. Millions wont do it.
How is it appealing? If it was appealing, everyone would do it.
Once in awhile I agree with Marty. In this case, it won't be appealing to me because imo it doesn't make sense because those that don't believe are sometimes better person (morally) than the ones who "believe" yet it seems they won't be saved?? -
marty-130-840283 — 9 years ago(January 12, 2017 02:39 AM)
it doesn't make sense because those that don't believe are sometimes better person (morally) than the ones who "believe" yet it seems they won't be saved??
Hi Raif, yes thats why I am here trying to save people. For example, the people in my street, like my neighbours and stuff, they never steal, lie, never curse, or do anything wrong, if they see someone in trouble they will help etc etc.
They are good, good people.
But, unfortunately, the Bible teaches they are destined for Hell, even though they are good people.
Being a good person, will not get you to Heaven.
The only way to be saved, is believing in Jesus. -
raif-1 — 9 years ago(January 12, 2017 02:47 AM)
Hi Raif, yes thats why I am here trying to save people. For example, the people in my street, like my neighbours and stuff, they never steal, lie, never curse, or do anything wrong, if they see someone in trouble they will help etc etc.
They are good, good people.
But, unfortunately, the Bible teaches they are destined for Hell, even though they are good people.
Being a good person, will not get you to Heaven.
The only way to be saved, is believing in Jesus.
It seems you mean well Marty but honestly, you're really not helping your case here -
marty-130-840283 — 9 years ago(January 12, 2017 03:20 AM)
It seems you mean well Marty but honestly, you're really not helping your case here
what is my case?
The Bible says, Jesus is the only way to Heaven.
Good works are useless, because all human beings since Adam and Eve, are born with a Sin nature.
Im not arguing a case, or presenting a case, - its what the Bible says. -
mamu2 — 9 years ago(January 12, 2017 06:25 AM)
But, unfortunately, the Bible teaches they are destined for Hell, even though they are good people.
And I find that abhorrent and immoral. And you said that belief is all that is required and that people can do whatever they want and still get into Heaven. Playing the No True Scotsman card does not hold water because there are plenty of people out there who consider themselves true believers in Jesus, who are not good people. And you claim they are destined for Heaven because of that belief without needing to change their ways. That's twisted, so yes it would be very appealing to believers who want to keep right on 'sinning'.
What exactly did Jesus and the NT authors mean by these passages then, if works and good deeds are useless in the eyes of God?
If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments. Matthew 19:17
Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Matthew 25:41-46
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. John 5:29
For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. Matthew 16:27
Who will render to each one according to his deeds. For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified. Romans 2:6, 13
For we must all appear before the jugment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 2 Corinthians 5:10
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works. 2 Corinthians 11:15
Be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. James 1:22
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? James 2:14
Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17
Was not Abraham our father justified by works? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rabab the harlot also justified by works? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:21-25
The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work. 1 Peter 1:17
I will give unto every one of you according to your works. Revelation 2:23
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life. Revelation 22:14 -
marty-130-840283 — 9 years ago(January 13, 2017 07:41 AM)
And you said that belief is all that is required and that people can do whatever they want and still get into Heaven.
Mamu, read what I said already. You need to pay attention. Listen and read what im saying.
I said that after believing in Jesus, people DO NOT WANT TO DO JUST WHATEVER THEY WANT, that desire is gone, they desire to do good. To be obedient to God.
If someone says "I believe in Jesus" and just goes ahead, and does whatever they want, they are not true believers.
If a Christian "does what he wants" for example, me, if i curse, or get angry, or watch porn, or whatever, God will discipline me. I confess to God my sins, ask for foriveness, and move forward, and try and do better next time. Its impossible to go 1 day without sinning, so my life is constantly sinning, asking for forgiveness, sinning, asking for forgiveness, it never ends. But slowly as a Christian I am changing, from watching porn every day (when I was unsaved) and working it down to once a week, then once a month.. then after maturing as a Christian, stopping completely. Its all about obedience, confession, asking for forgiveness, and working hard to be more obediant,
In regards to all your quotes about works, after salvation, Christians are commanded to to good works and spread the Gospel. The quotes refer to the good works we are to do, after being saved. Works dont get you into Heaven, only believing in Jesus will get you to Heaven. Works, are a result of being saved, wanting to do good works, for example saving people from Hell on the IMDB message boards. -
mamu2 — 9 years ago(January 13, 2017 08:11 AM)
I did pay attention, you are employing the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy, as I stated in my previous post, as to who is or is not a true Christian. This does not hold water because there are many people who truly believe but are not good people or are repeat "sinners". You yourself claim to be constantly sinning
Its impossible to go 1 day without sinning, so my life is constantly sinning
Seriously? Does that reflect well that a Christian can't even go one single day without sinning? How strong is your desire to do good then, if you can't last one single day without being sinful? You claim your desire to sin is gone because of your salvation. So shouldn't a devout, God-fearing person be able to go weeks without sinning? Especially since you believe your very soul is at stake?
This constant asking for forgiveness thing really just appears to be an excuse to keep right on sinning. You honestly don't think God gets tired of hearing you're sorry every single day, and annoyed you've learned nothing from it? And don't drag Satan into this. That is just another excuse.
Christians are commanded to to good works and spread the Gospel.
No, the Apostles were commanded to spread the gospel, and according to the Bible, they did. The Great Commission was fulfilled by them two thousand years ago. It's not your job to spread anything, especially on the internet. To think that God needs our help to do anything seems pretty arrogant. -
bastasch8647 — 9 years ago(January 13, 2017 12:02 PM)
Good replies, mamu. They remind me of a time I was dating a fundie girl. The church, of course, claimed to be sin-free because Jesus' atoning sacrifice made it so. Yet every Wednesday evening they would have services where these "sinless" sinners would parade to the altar to confess their sins. Apparently salvation, for them, is a brief, temporary feeling of having been saved, that vanishes in all the not-infrequent moments when they sin, sin, and sin again
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mamu2 — 9 years ago(January 13, 2017 01:31 PM)
Exactly. I find it mind boggling that a person so full of the holy spirit and love for Christ, (and having the desire to be good because of it), not to mention the fate of their everlasting soul at stake as motivation to be good, can't go a single day without sinning.
Just because we're allegedly born with a sin nature and have all these apparent temptations constantly around us, that doesn't mean we don't have the capacity to overcome it and resist daily temptation. Simple will power can keep you from sinning, never mind a fear of eternal damnation. Makes no sense, unless you really just want to use the get out of Hell free forgiveness card, over and over and over
God must love that. -
bastasch8647 — 9 years ago(January 13, 2017 04:14 PM)
mamu wrote,
that doesn't mean we don't have the capacity to overcome it and resist daily temptation. Simple will power can keep you from sinning, never mind a fear of eternal damnation.
Darn right! As you indeed pointed out by your very apt NT citations. And the Hebrew Bible agrees with you, telling the Jews that the Law and Torah-obedience is not something far away and unattainable; it is not a "yoke", as Paul thought of it; it is achievable via human will and God's grace. At least the Catholics recognize this with their Sacrament of Confession - i.e., the Church recognizes that, even with the grace of Jesus' atoning death, we still suffer from the effects of our sin-nature, or "concupiscence" **, which will sometimes cause us to fail and seek sacramental absolution
**
a desire of the lower appetite contrary to reason. For Christians, concupiscence is what they understand as the orientation, inclination or innate tendency of human beings to long for fleshly appetites, often associated with a desire to do things which are proscribed.- Wikipedia
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raif-1 — 9 years ago(January 13, 2017 03:58 PM)
You honestly don't think God gets tired of hearing you're sorry every single day, and annoyed you've learned nothing from it?
GOD never gets tired of us asking from him and he never gets tired of listening to us. Those are men's qualities
. Yes, we do get tired from people asking things from us but not GOD. GOD loves those that ask from him because this is one part of of us showing our humbleness in front of him. Consider these hadith traditions
God loves nothing better than that His servants ask from Him. Imam al-Baqir (a)
Supplicate, for there is nothing like Dua to get you closer to Allah, and do not leave out your minor needs, for the One who is the Master of the major needs is also the Master of the minor ones. Imam as-Sadiq (a)
I am as My servant thinks (expects) I am. I am with him when he mentions Me. If he mentions Me to himself, I mention him to Myself; and if he mentions Me in an assembly, I mention him in an assembly greater than it. If he draws near to Me a hands length, I draw near to him an arms length. And if he comes to Me walking, I go to him at speed.
More about this
http://hadithaday.org/hadith-qudsi/i-am-as-my-servant-thinks-expects-i-am/ -
bastasch8647 — 9 years ago(January 13, 2017 04:19 PM)
Yes, the Q'uran teaches about God's mercy. But the problem with Christians who think like marty is that they tear out and discard those parts of their own scriptures that insist that their God does judge a person by his/her works, and not "by faith alone". They separate the "salvation by faith" texts from the "salvation by love, charity, and compassionate works" texts. The result is - like the "Jefferson Bible", from which he excised all material that cause his rationalist sensibilities to break out in hives - a simple, arbitrary mutilation. The NT Letter of James addresses this "Pauline/Protestant" error, and says that "no one is saved by faith alone" - the only time, incidentally, that the phrase "faith alone" occurs in the Bible - and it completely contradicts the erroneous "Faith-only" thinking of marty and other such "Lutherist" Christians.
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iBabble — 9 years ago(January 14, 2017 05:07 AM)
Religion seems to throw out more questions than answers! So confusing. I personally, myself, think of Jesus as more a prophet & find his story absolutely heartbreaking
But, I respect faith & belief-I think the world would be an amazing place if everyone did! -
raif-1 — 9 years ago(January 14, 2017 05:18 AM)
Well iBabble, besides Christianity, Islam is the only religion that believes in Jesus. However, unlike Christians, we believe Jesus to be a messenger of GOD and not divine. We also believe that he did not die on the cross and that GOD substituted him for another (believed to be Judas) to save him from being crucified. Like Christians we too believe in his second coming in the end days to defeat the antichrist.
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iBabble — 9 years ago(January 14, 2017 05:39 AM)
Is this supposed to be in our life time? In Islam or Christianity? Some people believe he is here & I know there have been many 'theories' as to the identity of the antichrist! To be fair, historically, there have been a few contenders!
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marty-130-840283 — 9 years ago(January 14, 2017 05:42 AM)
no iBabble, the end times are not here yet. Throughout history, people have speculated about the Anti Christ (Hitler, Nero etc)
However, it very much feels like the end times are getting closer, in our lifetime? I dont know -
Rumble_McSkirmish — 9 years ago(January 14, 2017 01:56 PM)
Nothing's really gotten worse, just that in modern times we are exposed to more news about it. In times before violence happened all the time, and barring some huge disaster/tragedy, you wouldn't hear about it.
Now days all you have to do is turn your phone on and you'll hear what color socks some world leader wears on a Tuesday
Panzer vor! -
marty-130-840283 — 9 years ago(January 14, 2017 05:47 AM)
if you have more questions and are confused, ask away, and I will give you a Christianity based answer from the Bible (not an Islamic based answer based on the Koran)
I personally, myself, think of Jesus as more a prophet
Doesnt really matter what you think. The truth is, he was God, not just a prophet. The truth, and what you personally believe, are 2 different things.