Why Zodiac was never caught?
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samantharifkinftb — 9 years ago(April 15, 2016 12:51 PM)
I agree. The Stine murder was the closest police ever came, and it was ultimately because of incredible and downright bad luck Zodiac got away. I know Fouke and Zelms have always denied they spoke to the man they saw on Jackson Street, but even if they're telling the truth, Zodiac probably couldn't believe his luck when they drove away. The fact that the dispatch stated the killer was black was just the biggest fluke of all. In some really macabre way its almost like he was meant to get away.
The lack of DNA was always a crucial factor to this investigation, too. Or rather, the lack of knowledge surrounding DNA. Its easy to watch this film or research the Zodiac case and judge how it was handled by today's standards. Crime, crime dramas, crime documentaries etc. are so prevolant now we all have a basic knowledge of just what can be accomplished with DNA and criminal profiling. But we're going back to 1969: the term 'serial killer' hadn't even been coined. Pretty much all the Zodiac crime scenes had police officers traipsing around, touching potentially key pieces of evidence. As Detective Bidou (an officer at the LHR scene) said, if these murders happened today the crime scenes themselves would be handled completely differently: forensic scientists taking earth samples, the bodies remaining in situ for 24 hours - all this just didn't happen.
But Zodiac was (and is) no means invincible. Whether inadvertently or not, certain clues and evidence were left behind i.e. the fingerprint and gloves in Stine's cab, the palm print on one of the letters and the saliva recovered from the stamps. He managed to get away with it for a number of reasons. But I think we can guarantee that if he committed these crimes today, with the exact same methods and manner, he probably would have been caught after the first murder. -
cookiela2001 — 11 years ago(November 09, 2014 12:56 PM)
I do think something that helps many serial killers remain loose is that they often choose victims outside their personal circle or connected to a secret life. So to the police, the killer could be practically anyoneand how do you investigate everyone?
It's really not funny but one situation I always kind of laugh about is the married killer who slay victims on business trips or at his home when his wife was awaythen buried them in the woods behind his house.
Then he became a suspect, and the police asked the wife if they could search the property, and she got all indignant and ordered them away, saying, "You're telling me my husband is a SERIAL KILLER???"
Then a week later one of their kids came skipping into the house with a moldy skull from out back, chirping, "Mommie, what's this?" -
jasonbourneagain — 11 years ago(November 22, 2014 04:26 AM)
PS Perhaps someone could drop a link for detailed analytical summary if such exists - why Zodiac wasn't caught?
It depends on who you think is the Zodiac killer. There are other theories and other summaries. There are other movies besides this one.
I just saw this movie for the third time. I'm not sure if it's still in the Wayback Machine, but if you want to look it could still be there. It's an article in the Vallejo Times that talks about Arthur Leigh Allen being brought to trial by Det. Mulanax of Vallejo PD. He discusses the evidence against him. As the movie states before the credits, he died of a heart attack before the trial. -
zender8584 — 11 years ago(January 23, 2015 03:58 PM)
This just in: browsing the IMDB forums on a film you are about to watch is not a good idea if you want zero spoilers. If you want basic info about the movie prior to watching it (such as things that might offend you or running time), might we suggest the movie's main page.
The Anne Sellors fan club: http://www.imdb.com/board/21856457/board/threads/ -
Kristiparsons101 — 9 years ago(July 09, 2016 08:08 AM)
It's one of the most infamous unsolved serial killer cases in US history, that's why it's still talked about to this day. It's like being upset that someone tells you the boat sinks in The Titanic. And I agree with above posts, you don't deliberately go and read a movie board about a film prior to watching it then act surprised you found out details you didn't want to know.
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fiendfilms — 11 years ago(January 20, 2015 03:28 PM)
Why are you so angry longcandle? You're right though, I should have said Palm print. And yes my name is Jim Styslinger. My points are still valid though and your petty insults against me aren't going to negate them. Have a good day longcandle.
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longcandle — 11 years ago(January 22, 2015 03:19 PM)
fiendfilms:
Your
full
name is no secret; you've given it out publicly and proudly between IMDb and Facebook.
Jim, why are you so ignorant? Where's that New Year's resolution? You stated:
But in regards to Allen, his DNA, handwriting and a forearm print
[sic]
ruled him out as a suspect.
You did not express this statement as your opinion; you expressed it as
fact
, and you are 100% wrong. Not only do you choose to remain in ignorance, you are disseminating your twaddle as if it were truth to
IMDb
readers that may not know any better. Isn't that why you refrain from posting this bunkum on
ZodiacKillerSite
, where you are a member, correct, Jim?
Go on fiendfilms, go post there about your confidence that DNA traces are from the Zodiac killer, or that handwriting is going to eliminate suspects (Zodiac had a knack for changing up his handwriting hadn't you noticed?), or that a partial palm print (what a joke!), which could be from any paper handler (pre- or post-mailing) is reasonable to ELIMINATE a suspect, especially one with so much circumstantial evidence against him in this 46+ years-old cold case.
HAVE A NICE DAY.
fiendfilms (IMDb 'Zodiac' forum, Sun Jun 16 2013 22:12:29):
This is what I love about you longcandle. You speak very well but you're also
overzealous, biased and closed minded
A very interesting mix of negative traits.
[Re: 'It was Allen' PAGE 11, POST 3]
fiendfilms (IMDb 'Zodiac' forum, Sun Jun 16 2013 18:38:47):
Look longcandle,
I'll be the first to admit that I'm not always right nor do I always say the right things but at least I'm not some stubborn and cynical prick who's unwilling to acknowledge facts
.
But hey, if
relentlessly beating the hell out of a dead horse
helps you sleep at night, then so be it To each his own, right?
[Re: 'What doesn't make sense about Arthur Allen as killer' PAGE 2, POST 3]
fiendfilms (IMDb 'Zodiac' forum, Wed Jun 12 2013 18:36:18):
On the contrary longcandle,
I feel that my opinions have only thoughtfully developed more.
As I've said before, in a case like this
it doesn't pay off to be constantly stubborn
. . . .
[Re: 'I'm 90 percent sure Zodiac was a merchant marine' PAGE 1, POST 9]
fiendfilms (IMDb 'Zodiac' forum, Tue Jun 11 2013 15:01:14):
What's up longcandle? You still singing the same "ALA is the Zodiac
despite what the facts say
" tune?
[Re: 'Who is your prime suspect for the Zodiac killer and Jack the Ripper?' PAGE 2, POST 3]
fiendfilms (IMDb 'Zodiac' forum, Tue Jun 11 2013 14:58:10):
I can already tell you're
probably going to ignore that fact
but hey, that's how most amateur Zodiac "investigators" operate now adays, why should you be any different?
Do you realize how warped this comment is?
Come on man,
you can't just make an extreme assumption like that
to help incriminate a suspect.
[T]here's absolutely
no credibility
to that comment and
it's absurd that you would completely believe something you read on the internet without doing your own research first
.
[Re: 'Richard Gaikowski/Zodiac Connection Timeline.' PAGE 1, POST 4]
fiendfilms (IMDb 'Zodiac' forum, Sat May 11 2013 18:54:54):
I'm starting to wonder if James Vanderbilt was high on meth when he wrote this script or if he really
had the balls to blatantly lie about an innocent man
.
[Re: 'Has anybody else read the script to this movie?' PAGE 1, POST 1]
fiendfilms (IMDb 'Zodiac' forum, Sat Apr 27 2013 11:27:15):
Why do you keep making beep up? Call me a troll all you want but
I have been researching this case for a long time and I know when someone like you will lie to make a point
.
[Re: 'The Zodiac stalked Cheri Jo Bates and Darlene Ferrin' PAGE 2, POST 9]
fiendfilms (IMDb 'Zodiac' forum, Sun Nov 18 2012 07:56:21):
I don't think the police ever had the Zodiac's real fingerprints. I think the bloody print they obtained from the Paul Stine murder was not Z's and he either planted it to mislead investigators or the print may have been in fact from one of the cops who were first on the scene.
[Re: 'Zodiac suspect Richard Hirshfield' PAGE 1, POST 5] -
fiendfilms — 11 years ago(January 25, 2015 03:58 PM)
And the sad thing is that I've missed you off so much that you've decided to start an archive if all of my old comments. And why again? Because I said I don't think Arthur Leigh Allen is the Zodiac? That's incredible. Its incredible that my opinion has forced so much time, energy and hate out of you. It actually brings a smile to my face to know that I'm incidentally helping another a-hole lose his mind. And also longcandle, I don't care if you know who I am nor am I shocked that you doin fact frankly, I don't care. But I know it's not gonna help your case of looking like an internet creep with too much time on his hands to the other board members on here. -Jim Sty the Science Guy
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filthydeeds — 11 years ago(January 24, 2015 04:33 PM)
People argue about this all the time, one side says he was very intelligent and knew the areas he roamed off by heart, almost like a hunter another side will say he was just lucky.
It's hard to say really, for instance when you look at the Stine murder it was very sloppy and a giant risk, if it wasnt for him sending in the shirt as proof I'd say it wasnt a Zodiac murder. While the lovers lane murders and Lake Berryessa murder seemed to be well thought out and he knew the areas very well due to getting away very fast and not getting caught (even if they areas were somewhat desolate at times).
Another reason is awful police work, for instance one of the victims cars was returned to the family merely a day after the murder (90% sure this is true), plus much more - it honestly feels like they didnt put a lot of passion and hard work into it. THAT being said it is debated that the murders were committed by someone in who is an authority figure e.g police, fireman, etc.
As for a "reason" as to why he killed these people, it may have just plain random and he enjoyed showing dominance over his victims, it was almost a fetish, for example look at how he treated the couple at Lake Berryessa - he tied them up then without any way of defending themselves then stabbed them to death. Some argue that because he killed couples it was maybe something from his past that made him do that, like not being good with women, I happen to believe he simply targeted couples because he got 2 for the price of 1 or/and the areas couples went to have private time were quiet and desolate so he got to do his deeds in peace with very little chance of getting caught.
Unless somehow Zodiac comes forward and can prove he really is who he says he is or we find diaries we will never know or sure, sadly.Vienna?
OHHHHH VIENNA! -
babuandbabu — 11 years ago(January 26, 2015 07:34 PM)
Zodiac being intelligent & getting lucky are not two different things. He was lucky because he was intelligent enough to play cat & mouse with the police yet the police was/is sitting duck all the time.
You see there are 2 things missing in this entire case - evidence & witness. No strong evidence, no witness. Zodiac was too smart to leave any evidence behind, because a murderer playing with police wouldn't be dumb enough to make any mistake.
Mike Mageau who identified Arthur Leigh Allen as the zodiac, is hard to believe on because a long time had passed from the occurrence & he was alcoholic at the time of interrogation. It is highly unlikely to remember the face of the man who you've seen at night who shot at you & you have gone through a traumatic event in your life & end up being a drinker. You just can't convict someone because a witness says so. And the death of Arthur Leigh Allen is really a tragedy.
And about the Stine murder, it wasn't really luck. It was Zodiac's cunning moves. He knew exactly what he was going or going to do. He deliberately left the gloves in the car because being noticed by anyone him wearing the gloves would increase the chance of making him a suspect & there was a Good chance for the cops to stop him if he had worn them after getting away from the car.
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filthydeeds — 11 years ago(January 27, 2015 07:35 AM)
Zodiac being intelligent & getting lucky are not two different things. He was lucky because he was intelligent enough to play cat & mouse with the police yet the police was/is sitting duck all the time.
I disagree, you can have both. I think the whole cat and mouse thing was not based on intelligence or luck it was simply to get attention.
You see there are 2 things missing in this entire case - evidence & witness. No strong evidence, no witness. Zodiac was too smart to leave any evidence behind, because a murderer playing with police wouldn't be dumb enough to make any mistake.
Well, he left finger prints at the Stine murder but other than that yes he left nothing that we know of but I do think that also falls down to bad police work, any good cop will tell you there is ALWAYS something to find t any scene.
Mike Mageau who identified Arthur Leigh Allen as the zodiac, is hard to believe on because a long time had passed from the occurrence & he was alcoholic at the time of interrogation. It is highly unlikely to remember the face of the man who you've seen at night who shot at you & you have gone through a traumatic event in your life & end up being a drinker. You just can't convict someone because a witness says so. And the death of Arthur Leigh Allen is really a tragedy.
Totally agree, Mike was unreliable and quite frankly I think he has made a few things up in recent years. Allen to a lot of people is still the Zodiac but the DNA didnt match so it cant be him.
And about the Stine murder, it wasn't really luck. It was Zodiac's cunning moves. He knew exactly what he was going or going to do. He deliberately left the gloves in the car because being noticed by anyone him wearing the gloves would increase the chance of making him a suspect & there was a Good chance for the cops to stop him if he had worn them after getting away from the car.
I disagree, look how carefully planned the other murders were then all of a sudden we have a sloppy murder in a populated area which nearly got him caught. I think something went drastically wrong that night, maybe Stine seen the gun and tried to jump out? Who knows but it didnt go according to plan.
And when he was getting away we know cops stopped him, I think reality hit home here and he decided to tone down on telling the newspapers and cops exactly what he was doing and refined his technique, in fact I think he specially says something like this in a letter - stating he is going to make the murders look like routine robberies and etc.
I personally believe he continued murdering but because of leaving survivors he refined his technique so that there would never be none from here on in, almost overkill possibly. Then again he may have just stopped, I dont think we will ever truly know but I'd sure love to.Christ on a bendy-bus. Don't be such a beep faff arse.
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babuandbabu — 11 years ago(January 27, 2015 09:12 AM)
I think the whole cat and mouse thing was not based on intelligence or luck it was simply to get attention.
Yes, attention but wasn't it a great risk for playing with police like that? Surely high intelligence helped him.
he left finger prints at the Stine murder
There is no real proof that the prints were from the Zodiac. Though they didn't know who was zodiac, it could be of anyone.
but I do think that also falls down to bad police work, any good cop will tell you there is ALWAYS something to find t any scene.
Might be but that's what Zodiac was doing all the time. Leaving no trace behind. Because these little mistakes/traces would put you behind the bars, that's why he was way too smart for the police to leave anything behind.
Allen to a lot of people is still the Zodiac but the DNA didnt match so it cant be him.
Again, how can you just rule someone out just because of an unknown DNA sample? What proof is there that the DNA sample the police has/had (from under the stamp ticket?) is of the Zodiac? Allen is not a confirmed Zodiac but neither an innocent. He is still a suspect.
I think something went drastically wrong that night, maybe Stine seen the gun and tried to jump out? Who knows but it didnt go according to plan.
So if it was an unexpected thing for the Zodiac then it is very strange because he still got away. Because this unexpected murder was also too smart to leave anything behind (except gloves & unknown print but of no help). This makes Zodiac a "ready to kill" machine who can kill anywhere, anytime & get away with it without leaving anything behind. That's why I said he was extremely intelligent.
But him continuing the killings afterwards is really a mystery as his identity.
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