Why Zodiac was never caught?
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zender8584 — 11 years ago(January 23, 2015 03:58 PM)
This just in: browsing the IMDB forums on a film you are about to watch is not a good idea if you want zero spoilers. If you want basic info about the movie prior to watching it (such as things that might offend you or running time), might we suggest the movie's main page.
The Anne Sellors fan club: http://www.imdb.com/board/21856457/board/threads/ -
Kristiparsons101 — 9 years ago(July 09, 2016 08:08 AM)
It's one of the most infamous unsolved serial killer cases in US history, that's why it's still talked about to this day. It's like being upset that someone tells you the boat sinks in The Titanic. And I agree with above posts, you don't deliberately go and read a movie board about a film prior to watching it then act surprised you found out details you didn't want to know.
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fiendfilms — 11 years ago(January 20, 2015 03:28 PM)
Why are you so angry longcandle? You're right though, I should have said Palm print. And yes my name is Jim Styslinger. My points are still valid though and your petty insults against me aren't going to negate them. Have a good day longcandle.
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longcandle — 11 years ago(January 22, 2015 03:19 PM)
fiendfilms:
Your
full
name is no secret; you've given it out publicly and proudly between IMDb and Facebook.
Jim, why are you so ignorant? Where's that New Year's resolution? You stated:
But in regards to Allen, his DNA, handwriting and a forearm print
[sic]
ruled him out as a suspect.
You did not express this statement as your opinion; you expressed it as
fact
, and you are 100% wrong. Not only do you choose to remain in ignorance, you are disseminating your twaddle as if it were truth to
IMDb
readers that may not know any better. Isn't that why you refrain from posting this bunkum on
ZodiacKillerSite
, where you are a member, correct, Jim?
Go on fiendfilms, go post there about your confidence that DNA traces are from the Zodiac killer, or that handwriting is going to eliminate suspects (Zodiac had a knack for changing up his handwriting hadn't you noticed?), or that a partial palm print (what a joke!), which could be from any paper handler (pre- or post-mailing) is reasonable to ELIMINATE a suspect, especially one with so much circumstantial evidence against him in this 46+ years-old cold case.
HAVE A NICE DAY.
fiendfilms (IMDb 'Zodiac' forum, Sun Jun 16 2013 22:12:29):
This is what I love about you longcandle. You speak very well but you're also
overzealous, biased and closed minded
A very interesting mix of negative traits.
[Re: 'It was Allen' PAGE 11, POST 3]
fiendfilms (IMDb 'Zodiac' forum, Sun Jun 16 2013 18:38:47):
Look longcandle,
I'll be the first to admit that I'm not always right nor do I always say the right things but at least I'm not some stubborn and cynical prick who's unwilling to acknowledge facts
.
But hey, if
relentlessly beating the hell out of a dead horse
helps you sleep at night, then so be it To each his own, right?
[Re: 'What doesn't make sense about Arthur Allen as killer' PAGE 2, POST 3]
fiendfilms (IMDb 'Zodiac' forum, Wed Jun 12 2013 18:36:18):
On the contrary longcandle,
I feel that my opinions have only thoughtfully developed more.
As I've said before, in a case like this
it doesn't pay off to be constantly stubborn
. . . .
[Re: 'I'm 90 percent sure Zodiac was a merchant marine' PAGE 1, POST 9]
fiendfilms (IMDb 'Zodiac' forum, Tue Jun 11 2013 15:01:14):
What's up longcandle? You still singing the same "ALA is the Zodiac
despite what the facts say
" tune?
[Re: 'Who is your prime suspect for the Zodiac killer and Jack the Ripper?' PAGE 2, POST 3]
fiendfilms (IMDb 'Zodiac' forum, Tue Jun 11 2013 14:58:10):
I can already tell you're
probably going to ignore that fact
but hey, that's how most amateur Zodiac "investigators" operate now adays, why should you be any different?
Do you realize how warped this comment is?
Come on man,
you can't just make an extreme assumption like that
to help incriminate a suspect.
[T]here's absolutely
no credibility
to that comment and
it's absurd that you would completely believe something you read on the internet without doing your own research first
.
[Re: 'Richard Gaikowski/Zodiac Connection Timeline.' PAGE 1, POST 4]
fiendfilms (IMDb 'Zodiac' forum, Sat May 11 2013 18:54:54):
I'm starting to wonder if James Vanderbilt was high on meth when he wrote this script or if he really
had the balls to blatantly lie about an innocent man
.
[Re: 'Has anybody else read the script to this movie?' PAGE 1, POST 1]
fiendfilms (IMDb 'Zodiac' forum, Sat Apr 27 2013 11:27:15):
Why do you keep making beep up? Call me a troll all you want but
I have been researching this case for a long time and I know when someone like you will lie to make a point
.
[Re: 'The Zodiac stalked Cheri Jo Bates and Darlene Ferrin' PAGE 2, POST 9]
fiendfilms (IMDb 'Zodiac' forum, Sun Nov 18 2012 07:56:21):
I don't think the police ever had the Zodiac's real fingerprints. I think the bloody print they obtained from the Paul Stine murder was not Z's and he either planted it to mislead investigators or the print may have been in fact from one of the cops who were first on the scene.
[Re: 'Zodiac suspect Richard Hirshfield' PAGE 1, POST 5] -
fiendfilms — 11 years ago(January 25, 2015 03:58 PM)
And the sad thing is that I've missed you off so much that you've decided to start an archive if all of my old comments. And why again? Because I said I don't think Arthur Leigh Allen is the Zodiac? That's incredible. Its incredible that my opinion has forced so much time, energy and hate out of you. It actually brings a smile to my face to know that I'm incidentally helping another a-hole lose his mind. And also longcandle, I don't care if you know who I am nor am I shocked that you doin fact frankly, I don't care. But I know it's not gonna help your case of looking like an internet creep with too much time on his hands to the other board members on here. -Jim Sty the Science Guy
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filthydeeds — 11 years ago(January 24, 2015 04:33 PM)
People argue about this all the time, one side says he was very intelligent and knew the areas he roamed off by heart, almost like a hunter another side will say he was just lucky.
It's hard to say really, for instance when you look at the Stine murder it was very sloppy and a giant risk, if it wasnt for him sending in the shirt as proof I'd say it wasnt a Zodiac murder. While the lovers lane murders and Lake Berryessa murder seemed to be well thought out and he knew the areas very well due to getting away very fast and not getting caught (even if they areas were somewhat desolate at times).
Another reason is awful police work, for instance one of the victims cars was returned to the family merely a day after the murder (90% sure this is true), plus much more - it honestly feels like they didnt put a lot of passion and hard work into it. THAT being said it is debated that the murders were committed by someone in who is an authority figure e.g police, fireman, etc.
As for a "reason" as to why he killed these people, it may have just plain random and he enjoyed showing dominance over his victims, it was almost a fetish, for example look at how he treated the couple at Lake Berryessa - he tied them up then without any way of defending themselves then stabbed them to death. Some argue that because he killed couples it was maybe something from his past that made him do that, like not being good with women, I happen to believe he simply targeted couples because he got 2 for the price of 1 or/and the areas couples went to have private time were quiet and desolate so he got to do his deeds in peace with very little chance of getting caught.
Unless somehow Zodiac comes forward and can prove he really is who he says he is or we find diaries we will never know or sure, sadly.Vienna?
OHHHHH VIENNA! -
babuandbabu — 11 years ago(January 26, 2015 07:34 PM)
Zodiac being intelligent & getting lucky are not two different things. He was lucky because he was intelligent enough to play cat & mouse with the police yet the police was/is sitting duck all the time.
You see there are 2 things missing in this entire case - evidence & witness. No strong evidence, no witness. Zodiac was too smart to leave any evidence behind, because a murderer playing with police wouldn't be dumb enough to make any mistake.
Mike Mageau who identified Arthur Leigh Allen as the zodiac, is hard to believe on because a long time had passed from the occurrence & he was alcoholic at the time of interrogation. It is highly unlikely to remember the face of the man who you've seen at night who shot at you & you have gone through a traumatic event in your life & end up being a drinker. You just can't convict someone because a witness says so. And the death of Arthur Leigh Allen is really a tragedy.
And about the Stine murder, it wasn't really luck. It was Zodiac's cunning moves. He knew exactly what he was going or going to do. He deliberately left the gloves in the car because being noticed by anyone him wearing the gloves would increase the chance of making him a suspect & there was a Good chance for the cops to stop him if he had worn them after getting away from the car.
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filthydeeds — 11 years ago(January 27, 2015 07:35 AM)
Zodiac being intelligent & getting lucky are not two different things. He was lucky because he was intelligent enough to play cat & mouse with the police yet the police was/is sitting duck all the time.
I disagree, you can have both. I think the whole cat and mouse thing was not based on intelligence or luck it was simply to get attention.
You see there are 2 things missing in this entire case - evidence & witness. No strong evidence, no witness. Zodiac was too smart to leave any evidence behind, because a murderer playing with police wouldn't be dumb enough to make any mistake.
Well, he left finger prints at the Stine murder but other than that yes he left nothing that we know of but I do think that also falls down to bad police work, any good cop will tell you there is ALWAYS something to find t any scene.
Mike Mageau who identified Arthur Leigh Allen as the zodiac, is hard to believe on because a long time had passed from the occurrence & he was alcoholic at the time of interrogation. It is highly unlikely to remember the face of the man who you've seen at night who shot at you & you have gone through a traumatic event in your life & end up being a drinker. You just can't convict someone because a witness says so. And the death of Arthur Leigh Allen is really a tragedy.
Totally agree, Mike was unreliable and quite frankly I think he has made a few things up in recent years. Allen to a lot of people is still the Zodiac but the DNA didnt match so it cant be him.
And about the Stine murder, it wasn't really luck. It was Zodiac's cunning moves. He knew exactly what he was going or going to do. He deliberately left the gloves in the car because being noticed by anyone him wearing the gloves would increase the chance of making him a suspect & there was a Good chance for the cops to stop him if he had worn them after getting away from the car.
I disagree, look how carefully planned the other murders were then all of a sudden we have a sloppy murder in a populated area which nearly got him caught. I think something went drastically wrong that night, maybe Stine seen the gun and tried to jump out? Who knows but it didnt go according to plan.
And when he was getting away we know cops stopped him, I think reality hit home here and he decided to tone down on telling the newspapers and cops exactly what he was doing and refined his technique, in fact I think he specially says something like this in a letter - stating he is going to make the murders look like routine robberies and etc.
I personally believe he continued murdering but because of leaving survivors he refined his technique so that there would never be none from here on in, almost overkill possibly. Then again he may have just stopped, I dont think we will ever truly know but I'd sure love to.Christ on a bendy-bus. Don't be such a beep faff arse.
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babuandbabu — 11 years ago(January 27, 2015 09:12 AM)
I think the whole cat and mouse thing was not based on intelligence or luck it was simply to get attention.
Yes, attention but wasn't it a great risk for playing with police like that? Surely high intelligence helped him.
he left finger prints at the Stine murder
There is no real proof that the prints were from the Zodiac. Though they didn't know who was zodiac, it could be of anyone.
but I do think that also falls down to bad police work, any good cop will tell you there is ALWAYS something to find t any scene.
Might be but that's what Zodiac was doing all the time. Leaving no trace behind. Because these little mistakes/traces would put you behind the bars, that's why he was way too smart for the police to leave anything behind.
Allen to a lot of people is still the Zodiac but the DNA didnt match so it cant be him.
Again, how can you just rule someone out just because of an unknown DNA sample? What proof is there that the DNA sample the police has/had (from under the stamp ticket?) is of the Zodiac? Allen is not a confirmed Zodiac but neither an innocent. He is still a suspect.
I think something went drastically wrong that night, maybe Stine seen the gun and tried to jump out? Who knows but it didnt go according to plan.
So if it was an unexpected thing for the Zodiac then it is very strange because he still got away. Because this unexpected murder was also too smart to leave anything behind (except gloves & unknown print but of no help). This makes Zodiac a "ready to kill" machine who can kill anywhere, anytime & get away with it without leaving anything behind. That's why I said he was extremely intelligent.
But him continuing the killings afterwards is really a mystery as his identity.
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Michael71 — 9 years ago(June 05, 2016 10:43 AM)
Unless somehow Zodiac comes forward and can prove he really is who he says he is or we find diaries we will never know or sure, sadly.
With DNA evidence now can't they run a test and see if it matches to Allen, or someone else?
All the evidence points to Allen, but I don't get how the handwriting did not match, they tested both his left AND his right, and still no match, maybe he had somebody else as an accomplice? -
filthydeeds — 9 years ago(June 05, 2016 04:26 PM)
With DNA evidence now can't they run a test and see if it matches to Allen, or someone else?
All the evidence points to Allen, but I don't get how the handwriting did not match, they tested both his left AND his right, and still no match, maybe he had somebody else as an accomplice?
It's entirely possible, but I've sort of began to think he found a way to write differently, I don;t know if that is even possible but if it is then maybe this is what he did, that being said you have to also remember the DNA did not match Allen, this is crucially important.See, you? Get me a beep Curly Wurly, right?
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Michael71 — 9 years ago(June 17, 2016 12:47 PM)
Yeah, I agree that probably makes more sense that he found a technique to write differently, it sounds like it's possible, I just wish they could have arrested him as I think it was him that did it.
Remember after he died the anonymous phone call stops so not that it proves that it was him, and the victim recognised him, and he had a zodiac watch, I think it's too coincidental. -
filthydeeds — 9 years ago(June 17, 2016 01:22 PM)
Let's say it was in fact him, he was far smarter, far more devious and in general just more evil that we ever knew, in person he may have gave off a creepy vibe but it was really only certain things he was wearing that apparently made detectives alert.
No matter who did it I just dont know how he or anyone else could have hid or destroyed everything to do with the murders without being seen.
Whoever the Zodiac is, he is one of the luckiest men I have ever heard of in my life, its astounding how he got away with so much, even if he beep up, gave away details, teased police and so on.See, you? Get me a beep Curly Wurly, right?
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The-Demon — 9 years ago(June 17, 2016 09:42 PM)
Are you basing this off facts or what you saw in the movie?
While obviously I wasn't there in real life, neither was Graysmith in a lot of the investigation so a lot of what he wrote is based off memory.
Graysmith was so sure Allen was Zodiac that he built his story around him. It's the same with Harvey Hines pinning everything on Lawrence Kane. He knew Kane was an ex mental patient with a criminal record and tried finding evidence on him. Same with the My nam is____ cipher. It spells Kane backwards with the birth date so Hines was trying to figure out the cipher to again pin it on Kane.
So back to Allen, hints of it was actually shown at the prison scene with Darlene's sister. He was confident it was Rick Marshall that he kept pressuring her to say his name.
As for the phone calls, who says that was true? It's just Graysmith saying it doesn't mean it actually happened.
While Fincher is strict and tries to be as accurate as possible it's not actually true, it's even said Graysmith and Avery's relationship was entirely fictional and they never talked except once years after Avery left the Chronicle,
The drawing Graysmith did of Zodiac at the lake was actually drawn in the 80s. -
babuandbabu — 11 years ago(January 26, 2015 07:42 PM)
Because of what, really? Bad investigation? Someone did mistake in procedure (like with Chikatilo when messed matching blood and sperm)? Perhaps authorities wasn't interesting or hiding something? Or someone inside police was tied with this killings and cover up things?
Police had to do the investigation but on what? When there is no lead no connection afterall? And the possible witness Mike Mageau who could have helped the police ran away from the place.
All this movie/book or theory is just merely speculations from a 3rd person's point of view. There was/is no trail to follow that's why the Police failed. Zodiac was smart & never did any mistake when the police was doing trial & error experiments.
His claim of 37 or so murders is just another mind beep game of his to confuse the police & to mock of their incompetence.
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