Why Zodiac was never caught?
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filthydeeds — 11 years ago(January 24, 2015 04:33 PM)
People argue about this all the time, one side says he was very intelligent and knew the areas he roamed off by heart, almost like a hunter another side will say he was just lucky.
It's hard to say really, for instance when you look at the Stine murder it was very sloppy and a giant risk, if it wasnt for him sending in the shirt as proof I'd say it wasnt a Zodiac murder. While the lovers lane murders and Lake Berryessa murder seemed to be well thought out and he knew the areas very well due to getting away very fast and not getting caught (even if they areas were somewhat desolate at times).
Another reason is awful police work, for instance one of the victims cars was returned to the family merely a day after the murder (90% sure this is true), plus much more - it honestly feels like they didnt put a lot of passion and hard work into it. THAT being said it is debated that the murders were committed by someone in who is an authority figure e.g police, fireman, etc.
As for a "reason" as to why he killed these people, it may have just plain random and he enjoyed showing dominance over his victims, it was almost a fetish, for example look at how he treated the couple at Lake Berryessa - he tied them up then without any way of defending themselves then stabbed them to death. Some argue that because he killed couples it was maybe something from his past that made him do that, like not being good with women, I happen to believe he simply targeted couples because he got 2 for the price of 1 or/and the areas couples went to have private time were quiet and desolate so he got to do his deeds in peace with very little chance of getting caught.
Unless somehow Zodiac comes forward and can prove he really is who he says he is or we find diaries we will never know or sure, sadly.Vienna?
OHHHHH VIENNA! -
babuandbabu — 11 years ago(January 26, 2015 07:34 PM)
Zodiac being intelligent & getting lucky are not two different things. He was lucky because he was intelligent enough to play cat & mouse with the police yet the police was/is sitting duck all the time.
You see there are 2 things missing in this entire case - evidence & witness. No strong evidence, no witness. Zodiac was too smart to leave any evidence behind, because a murderer playing with police wouldn't be dumb enough to make any mistake.
Mike Mageau who identified Arthur Leigh Allen as the zodiac, is hard to believe on because a long time had passed from the occurrence & he was alcoholic at the time of interrogation. It is highly unlikely to remember the face of the man who you've seen at night who shot at you & you have gone through a traumatic event in your life & end up being a drinker. You just can't convict someone because a witness says so. And the death of Arthur Leigh Allen is really a tragedy.
And about the Stine murder, it wasn't really luck. It was Zodiac's cunning moves. He knew exactly what he was going or going to do. He deliberately left the gloves in the car because being noticed by anyone him wearing the gloves would increase the chance of making him a suspect & there was a Good chance for the cops to stop him if he had worn them after getting away from the car.
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filthydeeds — 11 years ago(January 27, 2015 07:35 AM)
Zodiac being intelligent & getting lucky are not two different things. He was lucky because he was intelligent enough to play cat & mouse with the police yet the police was/is sitting duck all the time.
I disagree, you can have both. I think the whole cat and mouse thing was not based on intelligence or luck it was simply to get attention.
You see there are 2 things missing in this entire case - evidence & witness. No strong evidence, no witness. Zodiac was too smart to leave any evidence behind, because a murderer playing with police wouldn't be dumb enough to make any mistake.
Well, he left finger prints at the Stine murder but other than that yes he left nothing that we know of but I do think that also falls down to bad police work, any good cop will tell you there is ALWAYS something to find t any scene.
Mike Mageau who identified Arthur Leigh Allen as the zodiac, is hard to believe on because a long time had passed from the occurrence & he was alcoholic at the time of interrogation. It is highly unlikely to remember the face of the man who you've seen at night who shot at you & you have gone through a traumatic event in your life & end up being a drinker. You just can't convict someone because a witness says so. And the death of Arthur Leigh Allen is really a tragedy.
Totally agree, Mike was unreliable and quite frankly I think he has made a few things up in recent years. Allen to a lot of people is still the Zodiac but the DNA didnt match so it cant be him.
And about the Stine murder, it wasn't really luck. It was Zodiac's cunning moves. He knew exactly what he was going or going to do. He deliberately left the gloves in the car because being noticed by anyone him wearing the gloves would increase the chance of making him a suspect & there was a Good chance for the cops to stop him if he had worn them after getting away from the car.
I disagree, look how carefully planned the other murders were then all of a sudden we have a sloppy murder in a populated area which nearly got him caught. I think something went drastically wrong that night, maybe Stine seen the gun and tried to jump out? Who knows but it didnt go according to plan.
And when he was getting away we know cops stopped him, I think reality hit home here and he decided to tone down on telling the newspapers and cops exactly what he was doing and refined his technique, in fact I think he specially says something like this in a letter - stating he is going to make the murders look like routine robberies and etc.
I personally believe he continued murdering but because of leaving survivors he refined his technique so that there would never be none from here on in, almost overkill possibly. Then again he may have just stopped, I dont think we will ever truly know but I'd sure love to.Christ on a bendy-bus. Don't be such a beep faff arse.
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babuandbabu — 11 years ago(January 27, 2015 09:12 AM)
I think the whole cat and mouse thing was not based on intelligence or luck it was simply to get attention.
Yes, attention but wasn't it a great risk for playing with police like that? Surely high intelligence helped him.
he left finger prints at the Stine murder
There is no real proof that the prints were from the Zodiac. Though they didn't know who was zodiac, it could be of anyone.
but I do think that also falls down to bad police work, any good cop will tell you there is ALWAYS something to find t any scene.
Might be but that's what Zodiac was doing all the time. Leaving no trace behind. Because these little mistakes/traces would put you behind the bars, that's why he was way too smart for the police to leave anything behind.
Allen to a lot of people is still the Zodiac but the DNA didnt match so it cant be him.
Again, how can you just rule someone out just because of an unknown DNA sample? What proof is there that the DNA sample the police has/had (from under the stamp ticket?) is of the Zodiac? Allen is not a confirmed Zodiac but neither an innocent. He is still a suspect.
I think something went drastically wrong that night, maybe Stine seen the gun and tried to jump out? Who knows but it didnt go according to plan.
So if it was an unexpected thing for the Zodiac then it is very strange because he still got away. Because this unexpected murder was also too smart to leave anything behind (except gloves & unknown print but of no help). This makes Zodiac a "ready to kill" machine who can kill anywhere, anytime & get away with it without leaving anything behind. That's why I said he was extremely intelligent.
But him continuing the killings afterwards is really a mystery as his identity.
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Michael71 — 9 years ago(June 05, 2016 10:43 AM)
Unless somehow Zodiac comes forward and can prove he really is who he says he is or we find diaries we will never know or sure, sadly.
With DNA evidence now can't they run a test and see if it matches to Allen, or someone else?
All the evidence points to Allen, but I don't get how the handwriting did not match, they tested both his left AND his right, and still no match, maybe he had somebody else as an accomplice? -
filthydeeds — 9 years ago(June 05, 2016 04:26 PM)
With DNA evidence now can't they run a test and see if it matches to Allen, or someone else?
All the evidence points to Allen, but I don't get how the handwriting did not match, they tested both his left AND his right, and still no match, maybe he had somebody else as an accomplice?
It's entirely possible, but I've sort of began to think he found a way to write differently, I don;t know if that is even possible but if it is then maybe this is what he did, that being said you have to also remember the DNA did not match Allen, this is crucially important.See, you? Get me a beep Curly Wurly, right?
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Michael71 — 9 years ago(June 17, 2016 12:47 PM)
Yeah, I agree that probably makes more sense that he found a technique to write differently, it sounds like it's possible, I just wish they could have arrested him as I think it was him that did it.
Remember after he died the anonymous phone call stops so not that it proves that it was him, and the victim recognised him, and he had a zodiac watch, I think it's too coincidental. -
filthydeeds — 9 years ago(June 17, 2016 01:22 PM)
Let's say it was in fact him, he was far smarter, far more devious and in general just more evil that we ever knew, in person he may have gave off a creepy vibe but it was really only certain things he was wearing that apparently made detectives alert.
No matter who did it I just dont know how he or anyone else could have hid or destroyed everything to do with the murders without being seen.
Whoever the Zodiac is, he is one of the luckiest men I have ever heard of in my life, its astounding how he got away with so much, even if he beep up, gave away details, teased police and so on.See, you? Get me a beep Curly Wurly, right?
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The-Demon — 9 years ago(June 17, 2016 09:42 PM)
Are you basing this off facts or what you saw in the movie?
While obviously I wasn't there in real life, neither was Graysmith in a lot of the investigation so a lot of what he wrote is based off memory.
Graysmith was so sure Allen was Zodiac that he built his story around him. It's the same with Harvey Hines pinning everything on Lawrence Kane. He knew Kane was an ex mental patient with a criminal record and tried finding evidence on him. Same with the My nam is____ cipher. It spells Kane backwards with the birth date so Hines was trying to figure out the cipher to again pin it on Kane.
So back to Allen, hints of it was actually shown at the prison scene with Darlene's sister. He was confident it was Rick Marshall that he kept pressuring her to say his name.
As for the phone calls, who says that was true? It's just Graysmith saying it doesn't mean it actually happened.
While Fincher is strict and tries to be as accurate as possible it's not actually true, it's even said Graysmith and Avery's relationship was entirely fictional and they never talked except once years after Avery left the Chronicle,
The drawing Graysmith did of Zodiac at the lake was actually drawn in the 80s. -
babuandbabu — 11 years ago(January 26, 2015 07:42 PM)
Because of what, really? Bad investigation? Someone did mistake in procedure (like with Chikatilo when messed matching blood and sperm)? Perhaps authorities wasn't interesting or hiding something? Or someone inside police was tied with this killings and cover up things?
Police had to do the investigation but on what? When there is no lead no connection afterall? And the possible witness Mike Mageau who could have helped the police ran away from the place.
All this movie/book or theory is just merely speculations from a 3rd person's point of view. There was/is no trail to follow that's why the Police failed. Zodiac was smart & never did any mistake when the police was doing trial & error experiments.
His claim of 37 or so murders is just another mind beep game of his to confuse the police & to mock of their incompetence.
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gary_overman — 10 years ago(May 24, 2015 03:48 PM)
As stated previously in this thread, police homicide investigations have to take into consideration that in the vast majority (70%+) of cases, the victim and the killer know each other. They might be family, friends, business rivals, enemies, or just casual acquaintances. What they typically do is to gather any physical evidence at the scene, then fan out, using this physical evidence as a guide if practical, and check the known associates, narrowing the list down until, hopefully, they arrive at a plausible suspect.
What makes serial killers so hard to track is that in most cases, this connection between the victim and the killer is lacking, so they only have what physical traces the killer leaves at the crime scene to go on. And sometimes, the physical traces left by the killer is very little or sometimes is lacking almost completely.
This is the primary reason that serial killers are so hard to catch.
Hope this helps. -
regahsof — 9 years ago(April 26, 2016 10:38 AM)
-Police chief ruling out the handwriting samples, assuming that just because it didn't match, it wasn't him.
-Not following up quickly enough or diligently enough on the only person who was eyewitness to the Zodiac committing his act - Mike Mageau - irregardless of the fact that he supposedly skipped town.