Why do people think Bran is a villain….?
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Archived from the IMDb Discussion Forums — Game of Thrones
vjfoogie — 9 years ago(January 13, 2017 12:05 PM)
Can somebody explain to me with evidence how you could possibly believe this? The only "evil" thing he has done was mind rape hodor. If you want to speculate that's fine, but at the moment the evidence seems on par with GoT taking place inside the eye of a blue eyed giant.
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janhommer — 9 years ago(January 13, 2017 12:30 PM)
Some people don't get that the whole concept of a "villain" (which would imply a clear, "classical" distinction between "good" and "evil") can not be applied onto the world of GoT, so whenever a character does something with terrible consequences (like Bran with Hodor and stuff) those people start thinking "oh my God, he / she's evil!" In other words, every single character is evil (that's why, for example, they also don't get why Jaime is still doing "evil" things, while he "was supposed to be redeemed"- er no, he wasn't) Like I said before, with the exception of maybe Hot Pie (he's the only one I can think of -well, Sansa didn't "technically" kill anyone either, so far; neither did Joffrey, though) they'd all be considered criminals if they lived today, anyway. But within this "criminal" world (I liken it to Tarantino movies, which are just like that and in which the protagonists actually
are
criminals living in today's world) there's characters who are more likeable than others -mostly because they're not
quite
as bad (likle Butch in Pulp Fiction who's the closest thing the movie has to a hero, even though he, too, killed someone -without even regretting it- and
not
because he had to) and Bran definitely falls into this category, so -
vjfoogie — 9 years ago(January 13, 2017 12:39 PM)
Bran definitely regretted itdid you see the look on his face when he realized what was going on? He also didn't know what would happen, if him warging twice like that was even intentional.
I would argue that just because you do bad things it doesn't make you a villain. Planning out bad things, and wanting bad things to happen with selfish intent is what makes you a villain.
Baelish is a villain. Ramsey was a villain. Joffery was a villain. Varys MIGHT be a villain. Sansa MIGHT be a villain.
Jaime has done some terrible things, but if you look at the circumstances it is hard to judge him for it. The only thing I judge him for is banging his sisternot cool. Definitely far from a villain.
Tywin is the only character that really walks the line between villain and terrible person. Tywin does everything to protect his family and legacy. The red wedding while horrible probably saved lives (I was going to keep going with A Few Good Men but I forgot the dialogue). The only planned evil Tywin did would be what happened to Tyrions first wife. That is just bad -
CheruthCutestoryII — 9 years ago(January 13, 2017 01:29 PM)
Some people don't get that the whole concept of a "villain" (which would imply a clear, "classical" distinction between "good" and "evil") can not be implied onto the world of GoT, so
You give this show WAY too much credit.
GOT definitely has villains. OTT caricature villains. This show loves traditional good v. evil sh!t.
Ramsay, Joffrey, Gregor, Viserys (to most not me), Littlefinger are all villains full stop.
And the "heroes" are completely white washed in the show. Tyrion has lost his most interesting facets. Jon has been completely whitewashed from the books and he wasn't even particularly bad in the books ever. So, that's impressive. But this Jon isn't about to switch out Gilly's baby knowing little Sam might die because of it. He won't gleefully respond "of course!" when asked if he'd kill Wildling children he took as captive.
The show is all about good v. evil.
Most people thought I was a hero for killing Lydia's parrot. -
janhommer — 9 years ago(January 13, 2017 11:25 PM)
I agree that the show is probably whitewashing some characters more than the books do (I'm not as familiar with the books as I should be, I admit, even though I read some of them). When I said "the world of GoT" I meant the world in which this story, i.e. the books and the show as "one thing" takes place, not the TV show in particular.
But that doesn't make it "all about good v. evil". If that's so, what's good and what's evil? If you think the White Walkers are "evil" like the Orcs on Lord of the Rings, you might experience a surprise in season 8, I dare predict (we've already learned they were humans once, so).
If anything, Daenerys will probably turn out the biggest threat to Westeros, rather than it's "savior" as most believe at this point. Which still doesn't make her "evil" as in for the sake of it (you know, like Sauron, were it's never actually explained why he's evil -or what exactly it is he even wants, for that matter).
Littlefinger definitely has a tragic aspect, so has Viserys (which you would agree with, if I understand correctly) Joffrey was unredeemable but you could argue it wasn't his fault he was born of incest and spoiled by Cersei growing up. Ramsay well, yeah, Ramsay kinda seemed to enjoy being evil for the sake of it and so does the Mountain, but they're only
two
characters and GoT has so many most of them are "grey" and Bran definitely f'd up a lot recently so he's definitely not a "good guy" who just can't do wrong, but he's also not a villain, he's a character who's at least got good intentions (which won't prevent him from doing terrible things occacionally, just as they don't prevent Daenerys or even Jon and Tyrion for that matter).
I personally still think it'll end in Dany being dead and Sansa sitting on the throne like her obvious role model Elizabeth the first. It'll be a somewhat "good" ending, but Sansa isn't a "good" character, just as Elizabeth was a good queen, but a questionable personality, not like Aragorn on Lord of the Rings who's just "good" without further explanation -
Leo_ofRedKeep — 9 years ago(January 13, 2017 11:54 PM)
If anything, Daenerys will probably turn out the biggest threat to Westeros, rather than it's "savior" as most believe at this point. Which still doesn't make her "evil" as in for the sake of it
She doesn't have to be evil to function as "an important evil agency in the plot". She can still be a villain with good intentions.
Littlefinger and Viserys are or were storytelling villains in that they are or were out to disrupt the "good state of things". Daenerys already was when she was pushing Khal Drogo to want "the Iron Chair" too.
Bran is a good guy paying the price of getting necessary things done. In that way he is no different from a commander sending men into a just battle knowing some will die. Stannis, on the other hand, was a villain in that his battle wasn't just. Joffrey might have been "unredeemable" but he was on the right side of things, like it or not.
you could argue it wasn't his fault he was born of incest and spoiled by Cersei growing up.
Shut up
Too much stag in the poor boy.
Long may she reign
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Leo_ofRedKeep — 9 years ago(January 13, 2017 11:40 PM)
Some people don't get that the whole concept of a "villain" (which would imply a clear, "classical" distinction between "good" and "evil") can not be implied onto the world of GoT
Let's see:
Villain:- a cruelly malicious person who is involved in or devoted to wickedness or crime; scoundrel.
- a character in a play, novel, or the like, who constitutes an important evil agency in the plot.
While most characters in the story have seemingly relatable motives, any of the thieves or thugs of King's Landing could fit the first point of the definition. Karl Tanner was one and it can be said Rast was too. The rogue Brotherhood men who slaughtered Septon Ray's community were that as well.
The second point is not as easy to satisfy since the storytelling does not present one good side facing adversity but several in competition with another, leaving viewers to decide how they feel about them all.
I have no problem in declaring the Ironborn, Dothraki or the slavers as villains: people who live from slaughtering, plundering or capturing others.
Likewise, Daenerys became a villain when she declared her intention of "breaking the wheel", consciously bringing war and destruction undercover of making the world better. The Sand Snakes who want to start a war out of revenge are clearly villains too.
Long may she reign
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com:443/data.filmboards/images/upload/BxJJSJZ.jpg
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CheruthCutestoryII — 9 years ago(January 13, 2017 12:52 PM)
This is ridiculous. The COTF were wiped out by their own creations and it is 100% their own fault. The fact that there was only a couple left isn't remotely on Bran.
Most people thought I was a hero for killing Lydia's parrot. -
D_Stormborn — 9 years ago(January 13, 2017 01:04 PM)
Bran putting his nose where it didn't belong and thus allowing the WW to enter the cave was the reason everybody and their wolf got killed. Even you can't ping that on the Children.
"Art is magic delivered from the lie of being truth"
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vjfoogie — 9 years ago(January 13, 2017 01:11 PM)
Bloodraven knew it would all happen, and it all needed to happen for Hodor. How can you blame Bran for projecting himself outside? As if he knew the NK could magically mark him or some bogus.
Bloodraven knew of the mark, and he said nothing because all of these events HAD to happen. None of this is Bran's fault. -
CheruthCutestoryII — 9 years ago(January 13, 2017 01:26 PM)
Killing two people is not a genocide.
If there are only two of your species left then whoever caused that to happen committed genocide.
If Hitler succeeded in killing all the Jews but one and then I hit that one with my car by accident I'm not guilty of genocide. Hitler is.
In this case, the COTF are responsible for their own elimination.
Most people thought I was a hero for killing Lydia's parrot. -
vjfoogie — 9 years ago(January 13, 2017 01:05 PM)
Also, Bran wouldn't have even gone to the tree if they hadn't constantly contacted him. Plus, Bloodraven knew all of this would happenhe knew why Hodor was Hodor meaning he knew the NK would get inside the tree.
The CotF not only died by THEIR OWN WEAPON, but they freely fought to protect Bran. It is laughable how people can accuse Bran of genocide.blame the CotF for creating a weapon they couldn't control. -
CheruthCutestoryII — 9 years ago(January 13, 2017 01:32 PM)
I really, really like the Bran is a villain theory from the books.
But it isn't actually based on anything he's ever done or said.
In the books, I think it popped up because Bloodraven is kind of an ambiguous character. And it's entirely possible that BR could be evil. Not for sure but it's possible. If so, then Bran is being lead on a path to become a villain.
It's also stuff like Bran taking over Hodor's mind. Which is shown (in the books) to be considered a pretty evil act by the culture of skinchangers. So, unintentionally, he's on a path that has him doing some stuff that is considered to be pretty evil by people familiar with the skinchanger lifestyle.
It's just a theory. Not more basis than Varys is a mermaid.
And in the show I'd say it has no basis. Since the 3ER isn't even BR. And we aren't given the bit about not warging humans.
Most people thought I was a hero for killing Lydia's parrot.
