I would really love an answer from our resident Christians…
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anasamas — 15 years ago(July 10, 2010 07:54 PM)
I'm not going to restate my position. It's all been done before.
'Almost' doesn't count. I don't see a federal law allowing this craziness in the near future. Once you convince the brain deads that rights you have never had are being 'taken away', you might get it.
I'm not going to relive past debates but every time interracial marriage, womens' rights, civil rights, court precedent, the 'homophobe' and "intolerance' name calling is brought up, you immediately lose the argument. None of this is germaine and/or true. Hadmatter told a lie about me hating gays. He also lied saying I was using the bible and religion in my comments. Also lies. This is how you do business. You don't HAVE an argument. It is based entirely on your own selfish demands and hope.
I'm not 'afraid' of further debate. You have nothing new and our side has won each time. As far as 'court cases' are concerned, when you win at the Supreme Court, the place you lost 39 years ago, you will have succeeeded in 'winning'.
It certainly could happen one day, so good luck. -
anasamas — 15 years ago(July 11, 2010 10:55 PM)
There's no 'pressure'. I've engaged in these so-called arguments with the pro-gay marriage side as have many others. You always come out on the short side because as I stated, you don't have a valid agument. It is just something that you want and hope for. Been there, done that. I illustrated how hadmatter told three lies in that one post about me and you misdirected the conversation to the Prop 8 proponents. Stefan, you're absolutely full of sh-t. You're living a delusional life.
You just keep on believing that you're as normal as the rest of us and that you have every 'right' to be married. Keep on believing that Baker v. Nelson isn't the controlling federal precedent on this issue. Meanwhile, the United States refuses to recognize this folly as 'marriage' as does most of the world. Keep hoping, wishing, and wanting. I'll keep laughing at your baseless
'arguments' and you can go waste your time trying to convince someone else.
So long, chump. -
ThatsWayHarsh-Tai — 12 years ago(April 11, 2013 12:23 AM)
I think you are confused.
Human beings are born with the 'right' to be human beings. To live and love and exist as they see fit the ONLY other 'right' - we, as a people are entitled to, is the right to live free from harm from our fellow man.
The state does not, our rights as human beings, make.
So, yes -
according to being born- we
all
deserve these fundamental 'rights' and -
according to being born - when one isn't allowed to pursue these "
GOD-GIVEN
" rights,
they are having something, which is inherently human, taken away from them.
I don't know why this is so hard for you to understand.
You're really into Jesus, and Jesus was really into this
whole concept
. Tolerance, acceptance, compassion, forgiveness, humility
At least, this is what I'm told. Judging from the words/behaviours of many of his so-called 'disciples', I believe HE has been let down.
I find it sad that a 'message' that was supposed to represent goodness and purity of heart, is (consistently even, historically speaking) used as tool of oppression, hatred, and as a conduit to the ugliest parts of mankind's soul.
- we
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anasamas — 15 years ago(July 10, 2010 08:25 PM)
You're right; I misspoke. Have to admit I saw 'Westboro Baptist Church', scanned the post, saw the usual rhetoric and thought he was speaking about just them. He even mentions their funeral antics in the lead paragraph! My bad. I apologize to Al for my remarks re: this.
Now to the rest of your post, hadmatter.
It is my belief that the public isn't coming around on gay marriage for a number of reasons and much of it has to do with the way this has been presented. Most of it is based on half-truths, outright lies, and a demand for phantom 'rights' that do not exist. This has been discussed before at length and I'm not going to get involved in that again. It's just so easy to pick your arguments apart. I've done it on several boards and so have others. You don't have a leg to stand on so you play the 'equal rights' card. It's become boring because you guys lose the debate every time.
The reason I am against gay marriage has nothing to do with liking or disliking gays. It has to do with good old fashioned common sense. I happen to like most of the gay people I interact with on a regular basis. I'd even go so far as to say I like a larger percentage of them than heteros. They tend to be nicer, less aggressive, and share my love for animals.
'You justify your personal dislike for gay people by using the bible. And you ignore other rules in the bible because they're not convenient to you.'
This is one of those outright lies that I just spoke of. I never stated that religion or the bible have anything to do with my position on gay marriage. You just made that up. I happen to be agnostic. Thanks for proving my point. -
hadmatter — 15 years ago(July 12, 2010 09:54 AM)
You don't have a leg to stand on so you play the 'equal rights' card. It's become boring because you guys lose the debate every time.
Not really. "Equal rights" is winning us this debate, and it's not taking any longer than we expected.
The reason I am against gay marriage has nothing to do with liking or disliking gays. It has to do with good old fashioned common sense.
And you call
me
a liar?
There is no "common sense" reason for a person to be opposed to gay marriage, because unless you're gay and want to get married, it has no effect on you at all. If you can demonstrate how gay marriage will negatively impact you, then perhaps you'll have an argument, but you clearly can't.
This is one of those outright lies that I just spoke of. I never stated that religion or the bible have anything to do with my position on gay marriage. You just made that up. I happen to be agnostic. Thanks for proving my point.
For me to be telling a lie, you'd actually have to prove that I knew I wasn't telling the truth. When you come in preaching against gay marriage and defending baptists, one can only draw a conclusion from context.
I am the sod-off shotgun. -
anasamas — 15 years ago(July 12, 2010 02:04 PM)
Not really. "Equal rights" is winning us this debate, and it's not taking any longer than we expected.
Right. That's why gays still cannot marry in most of the U.S., and much of the world. You're as delusional as stefanwhatsizname.
You already have equal rights.
The laws apply to everyone. Adult men can marry adult women and vice-versa.
If you are a man, it would apply to you as well
There is no "common sense" reason for a person to be opposed to gay marriage, because unless you're gay and want to get married, it has no effect on you at all. If you can demonstrate how gay marriage will negatively impact you, then perhaps you'll have an argument, but you clearly can't.
LOL!! I love you guys. You live in a constant state of denial. This has nothing to do with a marriage making a direct impact on my life. It has everything to do with society endorsing a 'marriage' among two people of the same gender. It is absolutely ridiculous. When a union of two homosexuals can biologically produce a family, we'll talk. Until that happens, you sound like an idiot.
For me to be telling a lie, you'd actually have to prove that I knew I wasn't telling the truth. When you come in preaching against gay marriage and defending baptists, one can only draw a conclusion from context.
LOL!!!!! The only thing I stated was that Westboro doesn't represent Christians anymore than the KKK reps White people. You sat there and fired off three lies about me and now you throw out even more bullsh-t that these were "conclusions you drew from context". This is nothing more than the hateful rhetoric that you regularly manufacture when someone opposes gay marriage and is precisely why people are turned off by it. Since you have no basis for your position, this is the only tactic that remains; lies, personal attacks, and the victim card. And you wonder why people despise you and your silly agenda. -
hadmatter — 15 years ago(July 12, 2010 02:27 PM)
You already have equal rights.
The laws apply to everyone. Adult men can marry adult women and vice-versa.
If you are a man, it would apply to you as well
Wrong. Marriage is about a commitment between two people. You can marry the person you love. Until I can marry the consenting adult that I love, we do not have equal rights. End of story.
This has nothing to do with a marriage making a direct impact on my life. It has everything to do with society endorsing a 'marriage' among two people of the same gender. It is absolutely ridiculous. When a union of two homosexuals can biologically produce a family, we'll talk. Until that happens, you sound like an idiot.
As soon as you can prove that the purpose of marriage is to produce a family, we'll talk. Until that happens,
you
sound like an idiot, and every childless marriage must really get you hot under the collar.
And it has EVERYTHING to do with marriage making a direct impact on your life. If it doesn't, then your opinion on the matter is really quite meaningless.
That being said, if the federal government rescinds all special rights that are associated with marriage, then I'll consider us equal.
You sat there and fired off three lies about me and now you throw out even more bullsh-t that these were "conclusions you drew from context".
They were indeed. Can you prove otherwise?
This is nothing more than the hateful rhetoric that you regularly manufacture when someone opposes gay marriage and is precisely why people are turned off by it.
Oh, really? So nobody was opposed to gay marriage before? Nice try.
What
this
is, my ignorant friend, is the same hateful rhetoric that your type regularly employs. Wait until a supporter of gay rights says something you don't like, then tell them "that's why we're opposed to gay rights". You've already done that at least once in this thread.
Since you have no basis for your position
Other than "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"
lies, personal attacks, and the victim card.
More like "accurate deductions, deserved personal attacks, and the righteous position of a second class citizen whose rights are being infringed." But I guess that's just splitting hairs.
And you wonder why people despise you and your silly agenda.
No, I don't. It's because of religion and fear.
I am the sod-off shotgun. -
anasamas — 15 years ago(July 13, 2010 01:58 AM)
Your latest message is composed of more of the same tired gay radical rhetoric. Every one of your half-baked arguments has been destroyed many times over by myself as well as others on this board. Too bad you still haven't come up with a valid REASON why governments should sanction a 'marriage' between two people of the same gender. Just because you desire it, doesn't mean that the feds are obligated to make an exception in the law to accomodate YOUR lifestyle. You're not as special as you think. You're just another schmuck who happens to prefer men. One day when you grow up and come out of your prison of delusions you might understand.
I will make my final reply to your last statement.
I said 'and you wonder why people despise you and your silly agenda' and you replied, 'No, I don't. It's because of religion and fear'.
I always get a kick out of radical loons like you who say that people 'fear' gays. Why would anyone 'fear' about 2% of the population that is wired differently sexually? The only thing people 'fear' is the fact that we have to listen to homosexual nutjobs drone on about how they believe they have the right to marry each other! Certainly, SOME folks are opposed to your agenda because of their religious beliefs, but those are the more hardcore folks, the ones who refuse to use birth control, and of course, those whacky Mormons. Most of us understand biology and have learned in grade school that the anus isn't a reproductive organ. We know that 'gay marriage' is an oxymoron.
Anyway, I've had enough laughs at your expense for awhile. I'll check back in a year or so when you'll no doubt still beating the same tired drum and begging to be like everyone else when you clearly are not. -
hadmatter — 15 years ago(July 14, 2010 09:17 AM)
Your latest message is composed of more of the same tired gay radical rhetoric. Every one of your half-baked arguments has been destroyed many times over by myself as well as others on this board.
Whined about and denied, but never destroyed. You and your ilk seem to believe that merely disagreeing with someone counts as "winning".
Too bad you still haven't come up with a valid REASON why governments should sanction a 'marriage' between two people of the same gender.
Can you come up with a reason why a government should sanction a 'marriage' between two people of ANY gender?
As long as the government gives prizes to heterosexuals for being heterosexual, then we do
not
have equal rights. Either same-sex marriage should be legal, with all the same rights and rewards, or heterosexual marriage should come with NO ENDORSEMENT FROM THE GOVERNMENT.
I always get a kick out of radical loons like you who say that people 'fear' gays. Why would anyone 'fear' about 2% of the population that is wired differently sexually?
I don't know, scaredy-cat. You tell me.
Most of us understand biology and have learned in grade school that the anus isn't a reproductive organ. We know that 'gay marriage' is an oxymoron.
In spite of your denial, your argument is boiling down to a belief that marriage only exists for the purpose of reproduction. Which I can prove is untrue. Do you have any OTHER arguments, or is this the part where you run away because you've nothing else to say?
I am the sod-off shotgun. -
anasamas — 15 years ago(July 14, 2010 02:29 PM)
In spite of your denial, your argument is boiling down to a belief that marriage only exists for the purpose of reproduction. Which I can prove is untrue. Do you have any OTHER arguments, or is this the part where you run away because you've nothing else to say?
LOL! Another famous tactic by you losers is once someone says goodbye, you have to get the last word in and then accuse the opposition of 'running away'.
Since you are incredibly dense, I'll help you out this one time.
I've said about 3 or 4 times that these arguments have been done to death. The reproductive area of this debate has been discussed many times. There are always exceptions, and this is just another desperate attempt to make your unbelievable weak case. Yes, the exceptions here are sterile folks, older people, and couples that choose not to have children. These exceptions do not change the primary factors why marriage is between a man and woman. Homosexuals are just 2% of the population and have zero possibility of creating a family in a homosexual union. That's why, excepting the 9 or 10 small countries, the world continues to have marriage exclusively between opposite genders.
Can you come up with a reason why a government should sanction a 'marriage' between two people of ANY gender?
As long as the government gives prizes to heterosexuals for being heterosexual, then we do not have equal rights. Either same-sex marriage should be legal, with all the same rights and rewards, or heterosexual marriage should come with NO ENDORSEMENT FROM THE GOVERNMENT.
As usual, you sound like a spoiled child who isn't allowed to have his candy.
We don't have to provide
any
'reasons'. The onus is on
you
to supply a valid argument because
you
are the ones that want the law changed.
Since you are unable to do this, the laws will remain as they are. Until it gets back to the Supreme Court, the only hope you have is to go state-to-state and play the whiny 'we want equal rights' card, even though you already have the same rights as every other citizen of the U.S. You happen to prefer your own gender and that's fine, but it isn't going to get you a marriage license.
I am confident that you will respond again because you
have
to get the last word even though you cannot win this debate. Unfortunately, it will fall on deaf ears. You can repeat the same tired nonsensical arguments to the next person who opposes this gay marriage scam.
See ya, chump -
BoogieKnight — 15 years ago(July 15, 2010 12:23 AM)
"The reproductive area of this debate has been discussed many times. There are always exceptions, and this is just another desperate attempt to make your unbelievable weak case. Yes, the exceptions here are sterile folks, older people, and couples that choose not to have children. These exceptions do not change the primary factors why marriage is between a man and woman. Homosexuals are just 2% of the population and have zero possibility of creating a family in a homosexual union."
This is merely your grand personal societal planner opinion, which has nothing to do with the law. The contention of "this is the way it's always been so that's the way it should always be" is also not a legal conclusion. The debate is about a legal contract between two people, not about families, children, pets, houses with picket fences, tradition, religion, etc. If any of this had legal merit, it would have been covered in the now concluded Proposition 8 trial. -
hadmatter — 15 years ago(July 15, 2010 10:50 AM)
LOL! Another famous tactic by you losers is once someone says goodbye, you have to get the last word in and then accuse the opposition of 'running away'.
Hm, indeed. Nearly as famous as your frequent tactic of announcing that you're leaving so you don't have to support your position. Since, as we both know, it is completely unsupportable.
I've said about 3 or 4 times that these arguments have been done to death. The reproductive area of this debate has been discussed many times. There are always exceptions, and this is just another desperate attempt to make your unbelievable weak case. Yes, the exceptions here are sterile folks, older people, and couples that choose not to have children. These exceptions do not change the primary factors why marriage is between a man and woman.
The primary factors why marriage is between a man and a woman is because women were considered property which could be trades with other strong families to increase their social standing and forge bonds.
Since this is NO LONGER the primary reason that men and women marry each other, there must be a DIFFERENT reason why the contract still exists, yes? And it has nothing to do with reproduction. It's an idiotic suggestion! Reproduction is not contingent on marriage, and marriage is not contingent on reproduction. The two have NOTHING to do with each other.
Homosexuals are just 2% of the population
Care to prove that? I mean, it's not like it makes a difference, but you seem to love throwing that figure around as though it was significant.
and have zero possibility of creating a family in a homosexual union.
Duh?
That's why, excepting the 9 or 10 small countries, the world continues to have marriage exclusively between opposite genders.
You're only guessing about the reason, and you fail (as usual) to acknowledge the significance of WHICH countries have legalized same-sex marriage. It's not about size, darling.
We don't have to provide any 'reasons'. The onus is on you to supply a valid argument because you are the ones that want the law changed.
Not when you argument is that there is "NO REASON" for the government to sanction a union between members of the same gender. For this argument to be valid, there must (conversely) BE A REASON for the government to sanction a heterosexual union. If there is no such reason, then there is no such argument.
Since you are unable to do this, the laws will remain as they are.
That's what you think.
You happen to prefer your own gender and that's fine, but it isn't going to get you a marriage license.
Who says I want a marriage license? I just want the
right
. And in spite of your oft-repeated lies and obvious cognitive dissonance, I
don't
have equal rights.
I am confident that you will respond again because you have to get the last word even though you cannot win this debate.
Of course I will respond, because I am not afraid. And so far, since I have provided meaningful points while you have provided none aside from "This is how things have been and therefore this is how they shall remain!", I
am
winning this debate. In fact, anybody could win this debate if you're the only representative that the other side can conjure up. Have you got any tactics besides poking your head in, yelling "gay marriage is a scam!" and then running away before you have to hear all the reasons why you're wrong?
I am the sod-off shotgun. -
Emmywins305 — 12 years ago(November 10, 2013 07:20 PM)
Since you are unable to do this, the laws will remain as they are.
Nice try, but DOMA was just struck down. Your attempt to keep gays down through bigotry and hatred is doomed.
Tell you what, if you don't like seeing gays get married in the US, why don't you try moving to places like North Korea? There you can enjoy having the government force you into leading the life THEY see fit. -
Danusha_Goska — 15 years ago(July 12, 2010 04:52 PM)
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Nofx67900 — 15 years ago(July 25, 2010 03:32 AM)
The question you pose isn't exactly an easy one to answer. This entire post is about Christians vs. homosexuals. Christians then will defend themselves with scriptures or opinions based on their beliefs, which in turn, offends homosexuals, and a battle occurs.
I will tell you what the probably is: Christians are their own worst enemies. I've been a christian all my life, I went to a christian high school, raised in a christian household, and been in the christian church all my night. However, I find it absolutely detestable that Christians are going out, in the name of God, and boycotting a homosexual's funeral. A human beings that was overseas, fighting for our rights to be a christian or a homosexual, who was good enough to fight and die along the sides of the other American soldiers, so why shouldn't he deserve and have the rights to a funeral of a true American hero? There is no real logical reason that a christian can give you.
This is the issue, Christians, because of how they are raised and what they believe, hold themselves higher then every other human being. They think because they are Christians, they are therefore entitled and they apparently have the right to tell people how to live their lives. After a christian is running around with a picket sign, screaming out homosexuals are going to hell, they go home and commit their own personal sins. But it isn't the same, because they're Christians. It's extremely hypocritical and disgusting. It's horrible to see how people run around, preaching about how it is their jobs to rid the world of homosexuals because "God told them too." God did not tell them to do that, they are using their religion for their own personal agenda.
As a christian, God called me to love. He called me to love everyone, not just other Christians. Now to answer the marriage question, as well as the shellfish dispute. Most Christians will tell you is it now ok to eat shellfish and pork and get tattoos and piercings and that basically Lev. and it's laws are no longer is play. They do this because when Jesus came, He lifted the law for Christians. Christians are no longer under the law, but under grace. No does that mean that Christians now have the right to go crazy and kill anyone they want, as depicted by Jesus? No of course now, because even though Jesus lifted the law, he also raised it for Christians. Before the sixth commandment, I believe, was though shall not murder. When Jesus came, He said, you shouldn't murder someone, but now if you hate someone in your heart, you have murdered them by hating them. So Jesus did away with certain laws and raised the bar on other laws.
Now marriage. Marriage is a difficult thing nowadays. Most Christians go into marriage with the attitude of " oh I love my partner sooooo much, so because I have so much love for them, God will sustain my marriage." And when that doesn't happen, they assume that God is telling them to divorce. That is a horrible assumption. For Christians, divorce shouldn't even be an option. Marriage is suppose to be a sacred promise that you make to your partner and God, that says that you will be with that person for the rest of your life, til death do you part isn't optional. But marriage isn't taken as seriously as it should be nowadays. It is spoken about in the Bible that if your spouse cheats on you, abuses you, or leaves you, then dirovce is permitted.
Now, as a Christian, I believe that all people are created equal. And that since we are all created equal, we should all have the same rights, and if someone doesn't think another person should have all the same rights, then they shouldn't count themselves any better then a nazi in WWII. Christians become very upset and defensive when someone threatens their rights as a religion group, but they don't seem to understand that they are doing the same thing to other people groups daily.
The whole thing is about respect. Do you respect other people's God given right to make their own life choices? I have several homosexual friends, who know that I'm a Christian and where I stand on these issues, they also know that I may or may not agree with some choices they make, as well as they may or may not agree with my choices I make in life. However, they do know that I respect the decisions they make in their lives. I respect their right to make the decision on how to live their lives. They know that, although I am a Christian, I am not going to start preaching to them about how homosexuality is the wrong way to go and that they are going to burn in hell, and blah blah blah. I'm going to let them live their lives, because I have no right to tell them otherwise. So as long as I respect them and their choices, and they respect me and my choices, we don't have issues.
The problem with Christians nowadays (and probably in the past also), is that they go around telling people how to live, when they themselves don't even live that way. It's horrible and extremely hypocritical. It's j -
vanguard59 — 15 years ago(August 15, 2010 08:51 PM)
08/15/10
Unless you have studied Canon Law as I have Then I suggest that you can keep quiet about matters that do not concern you, if you are NOT ROMAN CATHOLIC!
I am very tired of people spouting info. about a dogma that they DO NOT KNOW!!!
There are VERY strict lines drawn about annulment and Roman Catholics take this very seriously. So you can put away your $ signs.
I WILL NOT tollerate bigotry against Roman Catholics NO matter what form they may be!!
If you are a lapsed Catholic then go seek peace and keep your hatred to yourself!
If you are not, then again , do not spout info of which you do not know!
Just because you are over 50-ish does not mean that you are informed or intelligent!
Yes, everyone Catholic Bashing The Acceptable prejudice! -
hadmatter — 15 years ago(August 16, 2010 03:38 PM)
Unless you have studied Canon Law as I have Then I suggest that you can keep quiet about matters that do not concern you, if you are NOT ROMAN CATHOLIC!
Then tell the stupid roman catholics to keep their stupid churchy fingers out of my business.
I am very tired of people spouting info. about a dogma that they DO NOT KNOW!!!
Fascinating. I feel the same way about you holier-than-thou god types shooting your mouths off about homosexuality.
There are VERY strict lines drawn about annulment and Roman Catholics take this very seriously. So you can put away your $ signs.
Your churches are made of gold and jewels. Put away your own $ signs first, ass hole.
I WILL NOT tollerate bigotry against Roman Catholics NO matter what form they may be!!
Yeah? What are you going to do about it? Damn me?
Yes, everyone Catholic Bashing The Acceptable prejudice!
Oh, poor poor you. It must be so challenging to be in the majority.
I am the sod-off shotgun.