sorry, Ivy
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amsyco13 — 11 years ago(May 12, 2014 01:08 PM)
Apparently everyone else in the thread thinks incest is normal.. you absolute weirdos.. I agree the original poster - its gross!
And YES its normal to think it is gross. Did you not see how Ivy reacted when she found out? She was horrified, disgusted and upset.
Seriously.this thread has made me feel a little sick to my stomach.
People are actually justifying incest? That is just foul.
I guess they would say it would OK for Jean and Steve to hook up too. So what that she was 14 and he had to be in his mid-40s.its their life!
And you make a wonderful point neonberryIvy herself was horrified when she found out.
Are you a bug Bill Murray?
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joeykeo — 11 years ago(May 13, 2014 02:33 PM)
In this play in this situation. The two characters thought they were cousins. I'm pretty sure everyone has basically the same reaction as Ivy when they discover that the two of them are half siblings.
I don't know if she ever tells Charles the truth but it certainly seems like she is just leaving to continue on the plan of leaving going where no one knows them and starting over.
How do I feel personally about it? In real life I think incest (like most people) is absolutely a no. In this fictional situation up until that moment they thought they were cousins (which is weird in itself). Ivy can't have children which is the biggest reason that incest is not allowed. There is no risk of birth defects and complications. They were raised as cousins not siblings. That is the point of a dark drama like this. It takes away black and white and brings out all those grey areas in life that people don't like to think about.
According to all legal documents and records they are cousins. They were raised as cousins. They aren't having children. I'm not saying every brother and sister should be free to date but I am looking at very particular facts in this situation.
Again if they were raised as siblings and planned on having children it would be very different in my opinion. And obviously they realize even being cousins and dating/marrying is odd. That is part of why they are leaving town. So actual siblings adds to it. When I first watched the play I was just as horrified as Ivy.
I don't think anyone here is arguing for legalization of incest but we are trying to understand the characters and the emotions and what they are going through and how that relates to us.
I'm also pretty sure the FBI has better things to do.
Jo
Evil men do as they please but men who are good can only do as they are allowed. -
samymax — 11 years ago(May 25, 2014 09:32 AM)
- joeykeo
Beautiful Reply/ Totally agree with you. Thanks !
and what
@fiji5555 said
You do realize that we are all related to each other going by the DNA common in all people?
and
@jjcalzada -
Any problem solved is a new problem made. - Karl
- joeykeo
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fiji5555 — 11 years ago(May 17, 2014 04:13 PM)
Half brother and sister actually and so what? They aren't the twisted ones like 90% of the rest of the people in that movie. They were the only ones who knew what real love is.
You do realize that we are all related to each other going by the DNA common in all people?
Oh I'm sure the FBI is interested on what is said on IMDB eyeroll -
butaneggbert — 11 years ago(October 26, 2014 12:17 PM)
This one of those threads the FBI should monitor.
Yes, absolutely, let's endorse the government monitoring casual conversations for thought crimes.
I think I just learned everything about you I care to know. -
jjcalzada — 11 years ago(May 14, 2014 04:59 PM)
How strange that so many people here are so shocked by incest -including the majority of the characters in the movie, with the exception of (of course) Ivy. I'm pretty sure that most of the people posting their comments in this thread consider themselves good religious people. Surely they haven't read their Bible!
This is Genesis, chapter 19:
30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.
31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:
32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.
37 And the first born bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.
38 And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.
Not to mention, of course, that the sons (and the indispensable daughters) of Adam and Eve, forcibly commited incest to populate the earth. -
ciocio-2 — 11 years ago(December 14, 2014 06:18 AM)
Why in the world would you think that, because someone feels benign and not outraged by an adult couple, raised as cousins, who have brought most of the little comfort in their lives to each other, and who can not and will not have biological children, that that means they'd think sex between an adult and a 14-year-old would be okay? A 14-year-old can not consent to that (no matter what she or he might say or feel). If a 14-year-old positively throws himself or herself at an adult, demanding sex, it would still be rape on the part of the adult, if he or she complied. That's an extremely different situation to two legal adults committing to each other.
This discussion reminds me of many about one of the best movies ever made, LONE STAR, by John Sayles. As they say at the end of that one, "Forget the Alamo." -
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mimosveta — 11 years ago(May 20, 2014 06:15 PM)
If you want to say that we are all conditioned by societal norms to be disgusted by the very notion of incest, you'd be right, that we are. But from logical standpoint the only problem of incest is potential to have kids which in their case is not an issue.
Rather than conditioning people in this way, wouldn't it be nice if everyone would simply butt out of other people's business which this relationship would fall into, not any of our business and we shouldn't really judge them, after all, not their fault
Anyone who has ever read any spoilers,
knows that
Winter Is Coming -
thisempty — 11 years ago(May 28, 2014 09:41 AM)
No children, no harm???? Seriously????
So brothers having sex is ok since the female can't get pregnant???
WTF is wrong with you people???
Sorry about my English! Even though i bet its better than your Portuguese
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joeykeo — 11 years ago(May 28, 2014 04:38 PM)
What I am trying to do is look at the reasoning and motivation of the characters in this particular example. It doesn't mean I think siblings should be in relationships with each other. It doesn't mean I would want to be in a relationship with my sibling.
In this instance I think being raised as cousins plays a big part in this. Obviously they realized that being cousins would have a lot of people disapproving which is why Ivy points out they are leaving and going where no one knows them. So being half siblings is even worse. I think every state has incest laws though they vary. It is always close blood relations (mother father brother sister). A lot of states include first cousins. However some laws for cousins and siblings are suspended as long as all parties are over 18.
Again. No one here is advocating for incest. But we are trying to understand the characters.
And actually yeah here is a real honest question. . . if they can't have children who are they hurting? It makes it a victimless crime.
Jo
Evil men do as they please but men who are good can only do as they are allowed. -
Humanophage — 11 years ago(June 02, 2014 01:00 PM)
I always thought the taboo was against any relatives. I mean, marrying your cousin is even banned in most states. It is widely regarded as freaky, and people often mock rural Americans for supposedly doing this.
It seems idiotic that somehow a cousin is perfectly fine, while a half-brother is OMG KILL IT WITH FIRE. I am saying this from the traditional point of view, because from the rational point of view it is even more inane. Not only they are not having children, but they never saw themselves as brother and sister*, and they already discarded a silly taboo, so why not discard another?- and they are half-siblings anyway
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scarlettbees-892-755764 — 11 years ago(June 02, 2014 01:35 PM)
It's the reality of the situation that makes it gross. How could you possibly see this person you once loved romantically and NOT think, "same fathersame fathersame father?"
Spew all the "logic" you want, it doesn't matter that they were raised believing something else, doesn't matter that there will be no children. The reality makes things entirely different and unsettling and not okay.
And if you DO think it's okay, I wouldn't call you progressive or tolerant. Id call you either deluded, a liar, or depraved. -
Humanophage — 11 years ago(June 02, 2014 09:57 PM)
How can you not think "same grandparents, same grandparents" about your cousin? I don't understand the massive difference. There is a clear taboo against marrying cousins; it is a clear case of incest.
As for the last point, it's the same train of thought I see from my anti-gay Russian countrymen on a daily basis. -
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Brogan21 — 11 years ago(June 14, 2014 07:13 PM)
They didn't know they were siblings. They didn't go into the relationship as brother and sister. You saw how pitiful Ivy's life was, especially after having cancer and losing her chance to have children. Charles was a decent person to her and a comfort when she needed it the most. They fell in love in the same way everyone does, unexpectedly.
Incest is a difficult matter. It isn't black and white. Had they grown up together as brother and sister and still decided to love each other, that is a completely different story.
