No more Fru00e4ulein - BIG GOOF
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LisaWho — 10 years ago(March 31, 2016 02:22 PM)
Really?
I am German and while "Frulein" is definitely old-fashioned and not used anymore,
I would never get angry at a somebody calling me "Frulein" (especially if German is not their first language).
Sorry to hear you were raked over the coals for this (in my eyes minor) mistake! -
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Matt345 — 10 years ago(April 02, 2016 02:29 PM)
It can be used ironically, playfully and informally, or in an affectionately admonishing way (e.g. parents to daughter one hears all the time in modern fiction, sort of like "young lady"). No problem there. Only when it is used seriously and as a regular form it is jarring.
Depends on context, and one has to be aware of it being old-fashioned. -
Zwergin — 10 years ago(March 29, 2016 09:05 AM)
Sue him for sexual harassment over "Frulein"? I think not. But he could have called the police if she slapped him
Maybe she likes to be addressed that way? I would find it a bit strange maybe but I certainly wouldn't go ballistic over it, especially if a foreigner is using it -
jellyroll2 — 10 years ago(March 30, 2016 10:57 AM)
I am not going to pretend to know the ins and outs of German or Swiss culture, but she appeared to be an older woman. Perhaps the term was not as big a deal to her as it would be to someone younger. Don't know. It's a error. Every film and TV show has them.
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catflap001 — 10 years ago(March 30, 2016 02:47 PM)
Languages change for whatever reason over time. Even English. Frulein is just not acceptable anymore. If they ever invent a comparable word for Ms. then they'll probably switch to that if people get used to it. It's just the way it is.
In Germany, as in many other countries, for example France, there are official language authorities. -
ignorat — 10 years ago(April 02, 2016 10:56 PM)
Languages change but unlike France there is no normative language institution in Germany. The Duden Gesellschaft is purely descriptive. Working on an empirical base of how often a new word was used by certain (different) sources (like newspaper articles, mentions on radio and TV and lately social media as well). If this new word hits the mark it gets included in the next Duden. (This is the shortened version of the process actually it is a bit more complex.)
I agree that Frulein is rather obsolete, though I would never bite someons head off for it. Though someone as correct and "British" as Pine would never make this mistake. He would correctly use Frau. -
ignorat — 10 years ago(April 02, 2016 11:10 PM)
Ever since we lost visual signals for the marital status of a person (like our Middle European version of the hijab, the Kopftuch or certain other parts of our clothes that indicate social status like apron colour, hairdo etc) we women tend to prefer a neutral address, which would be Frau. Frulein, especially since it is grammatically bound to a neutral voice (it) is a tat disrespectful and condescending.
Or in other words: there are no visible signs nowadays to discern if a person of either sex is married or in a legal (same sex or different sex) partnership or living unmarried with another person, seeing someone on a loose or regular base or even interested in partnership in either way. So how would you like to discern if this "young woman" in front of you is married (defined by her association with a man) or unmarried and therefore deemed to be titled as Frulein? And how old does a woman have to be to loose the appellation "young woman"? Under twenty? Over? Over thirty? And how do you know how old she is? Do you ask? Or just assume?
You see, the definition of Frulein is based in a rather strict social system which a) deemed women to be less than man (there is no male equivalent for Frulein) and b) which does not exist any longer. We are quite enlightened, thank you very much, and don't need this kind of address any longer. It is obsolete.
Which, by the way, happened over time, by itself, through people and not an institution. -
caulkins69 — 9 years ago(April 19, 2016 01:28 PM)
Frulein, especially since it is grammatically bound to a neutral voice (it) is a tat disrespectful and condescending.
The same can be said of the word "Mdchen" but it is still used, is it not? I once had a German teacher who said she had tried using "die Junge" for "girl" but all that did was confuse people. -
citizenofdis — 9 years ago(June 01, 2016 12:32 PM)
In my old German math book (section on conics) there were two consecutive problems. One referred to "ein Mdchen (kleine Made)" and the other to "ein Mdchen (keine Made)". The joke being that Mdchen even though it normally means "girl" can also be grammatically correct diminutive of "Made" or a maggot. So the problems clarified if it was a "small maggot" or "not a maggot", the difference between the two only being the letter "l".
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truetron — 9 years ago(April 04, 2016 09:37 AM)
I'd say it would translate/compare to calling an adult man "little man".
A hotelier or "night manager" of cause wouldn't use "Frulein".
It's not a bad or mean word by intent, it just has no place where equal rights are supposed to be in effect.
Italians for example still use the term signorina, but it hasn't the "little/lesser" meaning of Frulein. -
Toke-11 — 9 years ago(April 14, 2016 10:20 AM)
Italians for example still use the term signorina, but it hasn't the "little/lesser" meaning of Frulein.
The ending -ina implies a diminutive (Signora: lady, Signorina: little lady), so yes it does. Same as the Spanish seora/seorita and French madame/mademoiselle. I don't know why it's such an issue with German, but maybe the gender assignation (frulein being neuter or "it") might be part of why it's seen as particularly demeaning in that language. In the romance languages there's no such thing as neutral gender nouns, so signorina, seorita, and mademoiselle are all feminine gender nouns. -
internet-72-525692 — 9 years ago(April 05, 2016 01:14 PM)
I live in Vienna, am a native German speaker and I have never ever (!) got the impression, that calling a young unmarried woman "Frulein" would be rude in ANY way. In Vienna I hear it quite often (mostly for teenage girls, not adult women) in a very charming way, like a waiter asking the "Young" "Frulein" what she would like to order. Yes, it is not used a lot anymore but I can't think of any of my female friends who would take it as an insult. Never even crossed my mind. Reading all these comments I was "what the beep are they talking about" the whole time.
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azrael_ — 9 years ago(April 16, 2016 02:58 PM)
Finally someone with a bit of sense. I, too, am German, although I've lived abroad for the last 30 years. Until I saw this thread I would never have considered "Frulein" to be rude in any way, and actually I still don't. I looked it up in the "Duden" and although it states that the word has fallen out of fashion and "Frau" should be used, nowhere does it say that "Frulein" is forbidden to be used.