No more Fru00e4ulein - BIG GOOF
-
Zwergin — 10 years ago(March 29, 2016 09:05 AM)
Sue him for sexual harassment over "Frulein"? I think not. But he could have called the police if she slapped him
Maybe she likes to be addressed that way? I would find it a bit strange maybe but I certainly wouldn't go ballistic over it, especially if a foreigner is using it -
jellyroll2 — 10 years ago(March 30, 2016 10:57 AM)
I am not going to pretend to know the ins and outs of German or Swiss culture, but she appeared to be an older woman. Perhaps the term was not as big a deal to her as it would be to someone younger. Don't know. It's a error. Every film and TV show has them.
-
catflap001 — 10 years ago(March 30, 2016 02:47 PM)
Languages change for whatever reason over time. Even English. Frulein is just not acceptable anymore. If they ever invent a comparable word for Ms. then they'll probably switch to that if people get used to it. It's just the way it is.
In Germany, as in many other countries, for example France, there are official language authorities. -
ignorat — 10 years ago(April 02, 2016 10:56 PM)
Languages change but unlike France there is no normative language institution in Germany. The Duden Gesellschaft is purely descriptive. Working on an empirical base of how often a new word was used by certain (different) sources (like newspaper articles, mentions on radio and TV and lately social media as well). If this new word hits the mark it gets included in the next Duden. (This is the shortened version of the process actually it is a bit more complex.)
I agree that Frulein is rather obsolete, though I would never bite someons head off for it. Though someone as correct and "British" as Pine would never make this mistake. He would correctly use Frau. -
ignorat — 10 years ago(April 02, 2016 11:10 PM)
Ever since we lost visual signals for the marital status of a person (like our Middle European version of the hijab, the Kopftuch or certain other parts of our clothes that indicate social status like apron colour, hairdo etc) we women tend to prefer a neutral address, which would be Frau. Frulein, especially since it is grammatically bound to a neutral voice (it) is a tat disrespectful and condescending.
Or in other words: there are no visible signs nowadays to discern if a person of either sex is married or in a legal (same sex or different sex) partnership or living unmarried with another person, seeing someone on a loose or regular base or even interested in partnership in either way. So how would you like to discern if this "young woman" in front of you is married (defined by her association with a man) or unmarried and therefore deemed to be titled as Frulein? And how old does a woman have to be to loose the appellation "young woman"? Under twenty? Over? Over thirty? And how do you know how old she is? Do you ask? Or just assume?
You see, the definition of Frulein is based in a rather strict social system which a) deemed women to be less than man (there is no male equivalent for Frulein) and b) which does not exist any longer. We are quite enlightened, thank you very much, and don't need this kind of address any longer. It is obsolete.
Which, by the way, happened over time, by itself, through people and not an institution. -
caulkins69 — 9 years ago(April 19, 2016 01:28 PM)
Frulein, especially since it is grammatically bound to a neutral voice (it) is a tat disrespectful and condescending.
The same can be said of the word "Mdchen" but it is still used, is it not? I once had a German teacher who said she had tried using "die Junge" for "girl" but all that did was confuse people. -
citizenofdis — 9 years ago(June 01, 2016 12:32 PM)
In my old German math book (section on conics) there were two consecutive problems. One referred to "ein Mdchen (kleine Made)" and the other to "ein Mdchen (keine Made)". The joke being that Mdchen even though it normally means "girl" can also be grammatically correct diminutive of "Made" or a maggot. So the problems clarified if it was a "small maggot" or "not a maggot", the difference between the two only being the letter "l".
-
truetron — 9 years ago(April 04, 2016 09:37 AM)
I'd say it would translate/compare to calling an adult man "little man".
A hotelier or "night manager" of cause wouldn't use "Frulein".
It's not a bad or mean word by intent, it just has no place where equal rights are supposed to be in effect.
Italians for example still use the term signorina, but it hasn't the "little/lesser" meaning of Frulein. -
Toke-11 — 9 years ago(April 14, 2016 10:20 AM)
Italians for example still use the term signorina, but it hasn't the "little/lesser" meaning of Frulein.
The ending -ina implies a diminutive (Signora: lady, Signorina: little lady), so yes it does. Same as the Spanish seora/seorita and French madame/mademoiselle. I don't know why it's such an issue with German, but maybe the gender assignation (frulein being neuter or "it") might be part of why it's seen as particularly demeaning in that language. In the romance languages there's no such thing as neutral gender nouns, so signorina, seorita, and mademoiselle are all feminine gender nouns. -
internet-72-525692 — 9 years ago(April 05, 2016 01:14 PM)
I live in Vienna, am a native German speaker and I have never ever (!) got the impression, that calling a young unmarried woman "Frulein" would be rude in ANY way. In Vienna I hear it quite often (mostly for teenage girls, not adult women) in a very charming way, like a waiter asking the "Young" "Frulein" what she would like to order. Yes, it is not used a lot anymore but I can't think of any of my female friends who would take it as an insult. Never even crossed my mind. Reading all these comments I was "what the beep are they talking about" the whole time.
-
azrael_ — 9 years ago(April 16, 2016 02:58 PM)
Finally someone with a bit of sense. I, too, am German, although I've lived abroad for the last 30 years. Until I saw this thread I would never have considered "Frulein" to be rude in any way, and actually I still don't. I looked it up in the "Duden" and although it states that the word has fallen out of fashion and "Frau" should be used, nowhere does it say that "Frulein" is forbidden to be used.
-
revengine — 9 years ago(June 02, 2016 12:55 PM)
Yes, PC can certainly make some people VERY goofy. For example; the OP - clearly a white knight sjw mangina - is obviously very "triggered" by the abusive and demeaning term Frulein when used by the oppressive cis white patriarchal male Jonathan Pine (who happens to be a fictional character, although he is written by a real life oppressive cis white patriarchal male John Le Carr who should obviously be slapped in the face and arrested for sexual assault, right?). Yes, THAT incident is worthy of a mention as an example of how women are not treated as equals and the fact that use of the term has been discontinued is a HUGE victory in the struggle for equality.
Meanwhile, the torture, rape and murder of Sophia and the torture and rape of Jed, well. Nary a peep. But what do you expect? OP is probably one of the same clear headed, logically thinking, rationally minded people who thought letting millions of north african males (i.e. the REAL "rape culture" that OP probably screams about in his many blogs and youtube videos) into Germany, to abuse and rape German women - and then blame it on the women who are obviously provoking their attackers - OP probably thought this was a good idea. Oh, but wait! I bet at least some of those rapists were using the term Frulein while attacking a woman. GO GET 'EM, OP!
"If you're waiting for a woman to make up her mind, you may have a long wait." Preacher -
Sovereign_Man — 9 years ago(July 17, 2016 01:08 PM)
Yep, right on.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3692184/Cologne-New-Year-s-Eve-attack-victim-pregnant-raped.html -
cpuller-642-329716 — 9 years ago(April 09, 2016 03:38 AM)
You would be completely right about Germany where nobody uses it anymore
but in Switzerland in a very conservative and expensive Hotel it does not seem that much out of place.
Swiss people say many things differently. Im a native speaker from Germany btw.
the term signorina, but it hasn't the "little/lesser" meaning of Frulein.
Thats exactly what it means. -
caulkins69 — 9 years ago(April 19, 2016 01:19 PM)
In the Zermatt hotel Pine keeps addressing the female hotel clerk as Frulein. In the 1990s the German language authorities got rid of that assignation.
You mean I can no longer have an assignation with a Frulein? Darn. [Scratches German-speaking world off list of possible vacation destinations.]