Martha!
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Ramboman24 — 9 years ago(January 06, 2017 02:11 AM)
It's actually rather straightforward. Can't believe you need it explained.
The Martha moment triggers PTSD in Batman, then he draws parallels to the night he was face to face with his parents killer and he sees himself as nothing more than a cynical monster.
He changes his mind, and rather than continue to give into his cynicism he decides to take a chance and trust his instincts that Superman is a good guy and will remain a good guy because Superman has been humanized right in front of his eyes.
He changes his mind its not that complicated. When we look at Batman's philosophy for wanting to kill Superman, technically, he makes a solid point. But at the same time, as the viewer you can't help but see that his philosophy is also quite cynical and doesn't really give Superman a chance to prove himself.
Despite what you and the haters seem to think, it's not that Batman has an "aw cool, our Mom's have the same name!" moment.
That'd be something that would happen to the MCU Spider-man. He's so easily impressed when he sees BUcky's metal arm so who knows
Make up your OWN mind. Don't be a follower.
I didn't quite nail it - Christian Bale -
CichlidAsh — 9 years ago(January 06, 2017 02:24 AM)
he decides to take a chance and trust his instincts that Superman is a good guy and will remain a good guy.
Only these are not Bruce instincts are they?
Despite what you and the haters seem to think, it's not that Batman has an "aw cool, our Mom's have the same name!" moment.
That'd be something that would happen to the MCU Spider-man.
What has the MCU got to do with this they did not write the script or make the movie did they why are you so obsessed with Marvel? That you constantly need to refer to them in nearly every topic?
Still despite whatever way you try to spin it
"aw cool, our Mom's have the same name!" moment.
is exactly what happens in the movie and then they are suddenly such good friends that Superman trusts him to save his mother. No way of denying that Rambo because we can all see it happen in the film.
To make a great film you need three things - the script, the script and the script -Alfred Hitchcock -
Ramboman24 — 9 years ago(January 06, 2017 02:30 AM)
Only these are not Bruce instincts are they?
They are after Superman is humanized in front of his eyes.
What has the MCU got to do with this they did not write the script or make the movie did they why are you so obsessed with Marvel? That you constantly need to refer to them in nearly every topic?
Still despite whatever way you try to spin it
Well well well isn't that the pot calling the kettle black lol. I trash the MCU when defending DC because you obsess with trashing DC. I know you're a Marvel zealot.
is exactly what happens in the movie and then they are suddenly such good friends that Superman trusts him to save his mother. No way of denying that Rambo because we can all see it happen in the film.
It's actually laughable that you think there's nothing behind the Martha scene. Especially after I've spoon fed you the deeper meaning behind the whole scene of Batman being triggered and Superman getting humanized.
Also, part of the reason Superman trusts that Batman will save his mother is because despite the fact that Superman has his problems with Batman, he would also be aware that Batman fights for the greater good.
Nothing in the film suggests that Batman kills innocent people like Martha Kent. He's always going after the bad guys.
Make up your OWN mind. Don't be a follower.
I didn't quite nail it - Christian Bale -
CichlidAsh — 9 years ago(January 06, 2017 03:17 AM)
It's actually laughable that you think there's nothing behind the Martha scene. Especially after I've spoon fed you the deeper meaning behind the whole scene of Batman being triggered and Superman getting humanized.
What is actually laughable is the fact that the DC Zealots think that people don't get what Snyder was aiming for with the Martha scene but just reject it because they know that the result of "Martha" was stupid and the effect was totally unrealistic.
WE GET WHAT THE SCENE WAS MEANT TO MEAN
it just does not work and so becomes one of the most funny scenes in cinema ever because of that.
Still lets move on
They are after Superman is humanized in front of his eyes
Bruce Wayne "Twenty years in Gotham, Alfred; we've seen what promises are worth. How many good guys are left? How many stayed that way?
So I guess that you don't think that Bruce is talking about humans here Rambo but aliens? As this is part of the films actual script it demonstrates that Bruce has no faith in humanity so humanizing Superman should actually reaffirm that Superman has a chance of turning bad and destroy humanity not make him think oh he has a human so he is ok then.
Well well well isn't that the pot calling the kettle black lol. I trash the MCU when defending DC because you obsess with trashing DC. I know you're a Marvel zealot.
Not at all Rambo I am trashing BvS on the BvS forum the place for talking about BvS be it positive or negative so what has Marvel got to do with it? They have the relative forums for you to go trash Marvel if you wish so why are you bringing them up here? I'm a Marvel Zealot? Oh you seem to have forgotten why you named me as a Marvel Zealot so let me remind you. You made a childish list something to do with OdumC and some other and I commented on it saying that it was making your look like an idiot and I had never even mentioned a thing about Marvel at that point and then despite me having never mentioning Marvel you labelled me as a Marvel zealot lmfao you stupid child. Still have you ever seen me defend a bad Marvel movie even once?
Also, part of the reason Superman trusts that Batman will save his mother is because despite the fact that Superman has his problems with Batman
Oh god that's putting it a bit mildly isn't it, he has problems? LMFAO Batman was trying to run a FVVking spear through him moments ago and end his life that sure is some problem!
he would also be aware that Batman fights for the greater good
Are you sure Clark does not seem to be aware of much to be fair especially for a reporter including who Brue is despite him being a high profile multimillionaire who lives in the city next to his (Christ the writing in this movis really is awful). Yet Superman this blissfully unaware person is suddenly meant to know the Batman who he only knows for killing people (which he witnessed himself)and trying to kill people (which he just experienced himself) and maiming people (which he saw on TV) is from this knowledge supposed to draw the conclusion that Batman is fighting for the greater good?
To make a great film you need three things - the script, the script and the script -Alfred Hitchcock -
Ramboman24 — 9 years ago(January 06, 2017 03:41 AM)
WE GET WHAT THE SCENE WAS MEANT TO MEAN it just does not work and so becomes one of the most funny scenes in cinema ever because of that.
Umm.
"How does Martha change this at all?"
Haha triggered. As I explained, it does make sense. In my explanation, you can clearly see exactly WHY it makes sense. Which is why you've gone from pretending that Superman & Batman became friends over their mom's having the same name to jumping up and yelling "I UNDERSTOOD IT ALL ALONG ITS JUST MAKES NO SENSE DERP DERP" lol
Keep adjusting your goalposts. You wanted the Martha scene explained, so I explained it to you. Don't get mad
So I guess that you don't think that Bruce is talking about humans here Rambo but aliens? As this is part of the films actual script it demonstrates that Bruce has no faith in humanity so humanizing Superman should actually reaffirm that Superman has a chance of turning bad and destroy humanity not make him think oh he has a human so he is ok then.
Except that after Superman is humanized, Batman also decides to put faith in humanity which is why the Martha scene is a triumph for both Batman and Superman. Batman is triumphant because he's able to subdue his inner cynicism and decides to trust Superman after seeing that his cynicism has turned him into his parents killer and Superman is triumphant because one of his haters decides to trust him.
Not at all Rambo I am trashing BvS on the BvS forum the place for talking about BvS be it positive or negative so what has Marvel got to do with it? They have the relative forums for you to go trash Marvel if you wish so why are you bringing them up here? I'm a Marvel Zealot? Oh you seem to have forgotten why you named me as a Marvel Zealot so let me remind you. You made a childish list something to do with OdumC and some other and I commented on it saying that it was making your look like an idiot and I had never even mentioned a thing about Marvel at that point and then despite me having never mentioning Marvel you labelled me as a Marvel zealot lmfao you stupid child. Still have you ever seen me defend a bad Marvel movie even once?
Oh trust me. I know the way you Marvel zealots work. Deny deny deny. "I'm not a Marvel zealot I swear" yet all you Marvel zealots share 2 things in common.- You all love Marvel
- You all obsess over and get joy out of trashing DC
Oh god that's putting it a bit mildly isn't it, he has problems? LMFAO Batman was trying to run a FVVking spear through him moments ago and end his life that sure is some problem!
And then decided not to put the spear through him and threw it away.
Are you sure Clark does not seem to be aware of much to be fair especially for a reporter including who Brue is despite him being a high profile multimillionaire who lives in the city next to his (Christ the writing in this movis really is awful). Yet Superman this blissfully unaware person is suddenly meant to know the Batman who he only knows for killing people (which he witnessed himself)and trying to kill people (which he just experienced himself) and maiming people (which he saw on TV) is from this knowledge supposed to draw the conclusion that Batman is fighting for the greater good?
"Killing people" - bad guys
"Trying to kill Superman" - Superman is aware Lex was also pulling both his AND Batman's strings. Batman perceived Superman to be a potential threat. There's an underlying theme of Batman trying to protect innocent people from danger.
"Maiming people" - Again he maimed a slave trafficker and other bad guys
I still fail to see where Batman demonstrates that he is a threat to innocent people
Fact is, Superman knows that Batman is a CRIMEfighter. In the film, he just disagrees with his methods. But nothing in the film suggests Batman kills or maims innocent people.
Derp.
Make up your OWN mind. Don't be a follower.
I didn't quite nail it - Christian Bale
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CichlidAsh — 9 years ago(January 06, 2017 05:22 AM)
"Killing people" - bad guys
When you grow up you might realise things are not quite so black and white Rambo. How does Superman know they were "Bad Guys" all he knew was Batman was driving through the streets killing people that makes him a bad guy as he has no authority to pass judgment on people this is Batman not Judge Dredd. For Superman to believe that Batman is killing "Bad Guys" it would also mean that he would have to believe that all Lex employees or security are "bad guys" which would be a bit of a stretch wouldn't you think for a multi billion dollar company? What do you think they do at Lex cord have on the application form are you "Evil/Bad Guy/Evil or Good?" (and they say this is a mature movie lol).
"Trying to kill Superman" - Superman is aware Lex was also pulling both his AND Batman's strings. Batman perceived Superman to be a potential threat. There's an underlying theme of Batman trying to protect innocent people from danger.
So you would be ok and best friends with someone if they beat you up and nearly killed you with the only thing that stopped you was the coincidence that your mothers name happened to be the same as yours, if you knew they perceived you as a threat and someone else told them to do it? Not bloody likely I would say.
"Maiming people" - Again he maimed a slave trafficker and other bad guys
LMFAO Bad Guys again, its a wonder they did not have them dress up in a black and white striped top and wear face masks. As bad as these criminals (this is an adult word for you Rambo) were it is not an excuse for Batman to carry out these acts of violence. Although to be honest with you I personally would not mind seeing slave traffickers getting branded in real like but that still does not make it right.
Fact is, Superman knows that Batman is a CRIMEfighter
No Superman knows that Batman is a criminal, a murderer and a torturer who does it in the name of fighting crime.
To make a great film you need three things - the script, the script and the script -Alfred Hitchcock -
Ramboman24 — 9 years ago(January 06, 2017 05:40 AM)
When you grow up you might realise things are not quite so black and white Rambo. How does Superman know they were "Bad Guys" all he knew was Batman was driving through the streets killing people that makes him a bad guy as he has no authority to pass judgment on people this is Batman not Judge Dredd. For Superman to believe that Batman is killing "Bad Guys" it would also mean that he would have to believe that all Lex employees or security are "bad guys" which would be a bit of a stretch wouldn't you think for a multi billion dollar company? What do you think they do at Lex cord have on the application form are you "Evil/Bad Guy/Evil or Good?" (and they say this is a mature movie lol).
Batman is a crimefighter lol.. Superman investigates him and realizes this. Why else would Superman tell Lois "I have to get Batman to help". He knows he's a good guy, he just disagrees with his methods.
Lex's security guards have vans with chainguns mounted in them. I don't think it's rocket science that Batman was taking out bad guys.
That's like saying Tony Stark and Cap can't be trusted by other heroes because they kill.
So you would be ok and best friends with someone if they beat you up and nearly killed you with the only thing that stopped you was the coincidence that your mothers name happened to be the same as yours, if you knew they perceived you as a threat and someone else told them to do it? Not bloody likely I would say.
Hey come on now. We've already been over this and you've already admitted you understand that the Martha scene wasn't them saying "hey cool our moms have the same name"
Superman went to fight Batman with the intention of getting him to help. Of course he's going to accept Batman's help. It was quite obvious that Batman was no longer hostile towards him. If he was, he most definitely would have delivered the killing blow when he had the chance.
LMFAO Bad Guys again, its a wonder they did not have them dress up in a black and white striped top and wear face masks. As bad as these criminals (this is an adult word for you Rambo) were it is not an excuse for Batman to carry out these acts of violence. Although to be honest with you I personally would not mind seeing slave traffickers getting branded in real like but that still does not make it right.
It's also not ok for Batman to work outside the law whether or not he kills criminals if you want to get technical.
Going by your logic it's not ok for Iron Man to fly around the world killing people either. I just looked in different thread where you were going on about how much you love the Punisher lol. Marvel zealot hypocrite is obvious.
No Superman knows that Batman is a criminal, a murderer and a torturer who does it in the name of fighting crime.
That also cares about protecting innocent lives
I certainly don't think any of this paints a target over Martha's head in Batman's crosshairs lol.
Derp.
Make up your OWN mind. Don't be a follower.
I didn't quite nail it - Christian Bale -
CichlidAsh — 9 years ago(January 06, 2017 06:15 AM)
Lex's security guards have vans with chainguns mounted in them. I don't think it's rocket science that Batman was taking out bad guys.
I agree having a chain gun mounted in a back of a lorry would lead me to believe they were criminals as well so then explain this bit to me what makes Batman the good guy? His Batmobile has machine guns mounted to the front of it which he uses and not only that he is dragging helpless people around behind him and kills them what part of this do you not understand is not legal and is criminal activity? Also if Superman does believe that these guys are bad guys why does he stop Batman and/or why does he not stop them himself?
That's like saying Tony Stark and Cap can't be trusted by other heroes because they kill.
Not sure which version of BvS Tony Stark turned up in but please do inform us.
Hey come on now. We've already been over this and you've already admitted you understand that the Martha scene wasn't them saying "hey cool our moms have the same name"
No you mistook me staying that I know what the scene was meant to portray with me saying it did not result in them becoming best friends because their mother had the same name. Because they do become best friends moments after they find out that they share mothers with the same name and you can not deny that or are you going to tell me that Superman did not become his friend after this and he did not trust Batman with saving his Martha and the warehouse scene was something I just dreamed up?
Going by your logic it's not ok for Iron Man to fly around the world killing people either
It really does seem we must have been watching different cuts in mine Batman and Superman became friends and he sends Batman to save Martha are you telling me in yours that they send Iron Man or something? Because you keep brining up Tony Stark and Iron Man and I am failing to see what he has to do with this movie?
To make a great film you need three things - the script, the script and the script -Alfred Hitchcock -
Ramboman24 — 9 years ago(January 06, 2017 06:33 AM)
I agree having a chain gun mounted in a back of a lorry would lead me to believe they were criminals as well so then explain this bit to me what makes Batman the good guy? His Batmobile has machine guns mounted to the front of it which he uses and not only that he is dragging helpless people around behind him and kills them what part of this do you not understand is not legal and is criminal activity? Also if Superman does believe that these guys are bad guys why does he stop Batman and/or why does he not stop them himself?
Batman is the good guy because he's working at something he believes will protect humanity. He's trying to steal the Kryptonite because he wants to prevent the chance that Superman could ever turn bad. He has what he perceives to be humanity's best interests at heart I somewhat agree with his philosophy that one man should not possess the level of power that Superman has although if I knew everything about Superman I may make the exception because he's Superman. But I'm not a character in the movie that doesn't know Superman.
Batman doesn't shoot first in that scene. Lex's security starts firing at Batman. In this film, he's more reckless but I figure if they were trying to kill him who cares if he kills back
That's pretty well how most American action heroes work
But I was never making the argument that I don't question Batman's morally grey area. As for Superman, he was transfixed on Batman at the time, had been paying lots of attention to him, and was most likely waiting for him to slip up. He obviously waited until he'd had enough to interfere with Batman and I think he made it pretty clear that it was time for Batman to shut down his operation.
Not sure which version of BvS Tony Stark turned up in but please do inform us.
I'm comparing because you're a Marvel zealot and I think it's fair game to use those characters to point out your hypocrisy. Your argument about Batman killing doesn't seem to have anything to do with how it's a departure from the comics (given that you don't read comics). It seems to be that your underlying issue is that you think Batman is some sort of sadistic murderer without any heroic qualities at all.
But I don't see you ever complaining about any of the MArvel heroes that kill
Hypocrite.
No you mistook me staying that I know what the scene was meant to portray with me saying it did not result in them becoming best friends because their mother had the same name. Because they do become best friends moments after they find out that they share mothers with the same name and you can not deny that or are you going to tell me that Superman did not become his friend after this and he did not trust Batman with saving his Martha and the warehouse scene was something I just dreamed up?
Oh, sure that happens but it's not as cut and dry as you're making it out to be. And I don't believe that they became best friends simply because their mom's have the same names just for similarities sake.
There's more to that meaning behind it all as I've explained countless times.
It really does seem we must have been watching different cuts in mine Batman and Superman became friends and he sends Batman to save Martha are you telling me in yours that they send Iron Man or something? Because you keep brining up Tony Stark and Iron Man and I am failing to see what he has to do with this movie?
Again just pointing out the hypocrisy. It's like the whole Punisher thing. I saw you say he's your favorite Marvel character and then I see you bashing Batman trying to make him out to be some sort of sadistic serial killer with that has no heroic qualities.
Just more proof that you're a Marvel zealot. It's not hard to spot the hypocrisy of a Marvelturd. I'll leave out the tard since you can actually try to defend yourself unlike Ogump and some of the more severe Marveltarded characters on this board.
Make up your OWN mind. Don't be a follower.
I didn't quite nail it - Christian Bale -
Kyos — 9 years ago(January 06, 2017 09:10 AM)
Batman doesn't shoot first in that scene. Lex's security starts firing at Batman.
Seriously though - how do you think non-bad-guy security personell would act if they were transporting some high value cargo and suddenly found themselves being pursued by some insane armoured vehicle? -
CichlidAsh — 9 years ago(January 07, 2017 06:56 AM)
Batman is the good guy because he's working at something he believes will protect humanity. He's trying to steal the Kryptonite because he wants to prevent the chance that Superman could ever turn bad.
How does Superman know this? He doesn't all he knows is that two groups of people are having a shoot out using heavy weaponry, one of which is Batman someone who is known to be causing the death of people, torturing and maiming them.
Superman has although if I knew everything about Superman I may make the exception because he's Superman
Again great if as we as a viewer/reader of all his comics and films know that Superman is a good guy but again this is using our knowledge of the character something that Batman is not privy too.
Batman is some sort of sadistic murderer without any heroic qualities at all.
I am judging Batman in the DCEU here and from what he have seen of him in this material alone. Ok I have witnessed the following.- Data theft from someone he does not know at this point is a bad guy as you like to call them
- Brand and torture people and no it does not give you permission to do such thing because your rich and have a rubber bat fetish no matter how dad these people might be.
- Try and kill Superman
- Work for Amanda Waller
- Do the bidding of Lex
- Punch a girl in the face
- Use a child as a human shield
- Drag helpless (bad guys) people in a car and murder them
- Have employees so scared of him that they dare not leave a building when a city is under attack without his permission.
oh the so called heroic side we have seen so far: - Him save a little girl in metropolis
- Save
Martha!
Nothing else springs to mind and how it managed to save Martha I will never know those Mercenaries should have killed her the second they saw the Batwing start shooting up the place and just scattered but they did not for I guess .reasons?
To make a great film you need three things - the script, the script and the script -Alfred Hitchcock
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Ramboman24 — 9 years ago(January 07, 2017 07:12 AM)
How does Superman know this? He doesn't all he knows is that two groups of people are having a shoot out using heavy weaponry, one of which is Batman someone who is known to be causing the death of people, torturing and maiming them.
I think most people know that Batman is a vigilante at that point. Superman tells him to stop so I'm not sure what you're so worried about.- Data theft from someone he does not know at this point is a bad guy as you like to call them
- Brand and torture people and no it does not give you permission to do such thing because your rich and have a rubber bat fetish no matter how dad these people might be.
- Try and kill Superman
- Work for Amanda Waller
- Do the bidding of Lex
- Punch a girl in the face
- Use a child as a human shield
- Drag helpless (bad guys) people in a car and murder them
- Have employees so scared of him that they dare not leave a building when a city is under attack without his permission.
Complete desperation and grasping at straws. Trying to kill Superman (because of his philosophy that no one man should have that much power and because he believes power corrupts)
Branding and torturing. I never said it was right, but he's not running around at night doing this to innocent people. He's doing this to criminals which I personally have no problem with Batman doing.
In my eyes, I think it's justified when you consider who he's doing it to. Yes, I realize it's against the law but everything Batman does is against the law.
The Pact
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CichlidAsh — 9 years ago(January 07, 2017 09:38 PM)
Complete desperation and grasping at straws. Trying to kill Superman (because of his philosophy that no one man should have that much power and because he believes power corrupts)
You can not justify Batman trying to kill someone because it is his philosophy is no excuse. Next you will be siding with terrorists well that would be if you were not so deluded already that you believe that your own government wasn't carrying out the attacks.
Complete desperation and grasping at straws
Nope all valid points and you know it else you would have made an attempt to counter them.
To make a great film you need three things - the script, the script and the script -Alfred Hitchcock -
Ramboman24 — 9 years ago(January 08, 2017 01:38 AM)
I only bothered addressing the ones that weren't complete straw man arguments but I'll do the rest now.
- Data theft from someone he does not know at this point is a bad guy as you like to call them.
Seriously? Big deal. Batman obtains information illegally in his sleuthing all the time. - Brand and torture people and no it does not give you permission to do such thing because your rich and have a rubber bat fetish no matter how dad these people might be.
When did I ever say Batman had permission to brand and torture criminals? Technically Batman doesn't have proper permission to work outside the law at all lol dumbass. Batman working outside the law is something Batman fans are used to - Try and kill Superman
Again, because of his philosophy and worry for the well being of humanity - Work for Amanda Waller
He's building up the JL - Do the bidding of Lex
He had been manipulated - Punch a girl in the face
I've seen countless male action heroes punch women - Use a child as a human shield
That was a poorly shot scene from a bad movie. Regardless, he didn't grab her and use her as a human shield she ran up in front of Deadshot and acted as a human shield herself
. - Drag helpless (bad guys) people in a car and murder them
Exactly, bad guys
No I'm not saying it's "legal" I'm just saying I don't care doesn't mean he isn't a hero that cares about protecting innocents - Have employees so scared of him that they dare not leave a building when a city is under attack without his permission.
The last one is just retarded
I don't see how any of those straw man arguments prove Batman isn't a hero that fights crime
The Pact
- Data theft from someone he does not know at this point is a bad guy as you like to call them.