So that men like Edward or Tony won't be considered "weak" because they are sensitive or unwilling to have a dick fight
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FilmFan123138501 — 9 years ago(January 04, 2017 08:36 AM)
I see your point, in cheap Hollywood movies maybe we would've seen a fight during that road interaction. I did however find Tony to react "weak" towards the issue, he seemed scared and didn't attempt to hit any of those beep I kept waiting for a moment where he does something.
On your issue of masculinity, I guess it's become a norm to us to see men fight under those circumstances, it's not really Tom's fault for portraying the "weak" like that.
To be honest, I wouldn't know how else to portray a "weak" person using that story Ed writes. -
CeroneSicario — 9 years ago(January 29, 2017 08:57 AM)
In real life that would have happened. Tony was a cultured man from a civilized town. Ray and company were backwoods hooligans with no bed side manner and could do whatever the hell they wanted to no limit. That's why Tony pretty much failed in that situation cause he was outgunned. I will say though that the scene could have been executed better. Ford's definitely got his own unique filmic style, but he needs to work on how he directs the scenes themselves and not come off as if we're watching stylistic test footage.
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Nethlem — 9 years ago(February 01, 2017 02:53 PM)
That's why Tony pretty much failed in that situation cause he was outgunned.
"Failing" implies that he actually tried to do anything, but he didn't, he just passively let it all happen.
When the two guys grabbed his wife and daughter
they
fought back more than Tony ever did, he just watched it all, not even trying to go for the third guy while the other two were preoccupied with his wife and daughter. But that was exactly the point where the whole situation turned extremely sour and he had enough cause to put up a fight.
Then he let himself, again passively without any fight at all, get pulled out of the car, why? I got angry just from watching this fictional situation unfold, I don't understand how he could let all that just happen without even
trying
to do anything about it.
Before anybody goes there: I'm not saying he should have been more "alpha" or "manly", I'm merely saying he should have put up more of a fight just like his wife and daughter did, that whole situation was painful to watch, which I guess was the whole point.
And to stay on topic: I don't see how any of that has anything to do with "gender roles" except for some slurs that feminists consider offensive, imho it said more about the general nature of people than some "gender roles". People just react differently to extreme situations like this, regardless of gender. -
CeroneSicario — 9 years ago(February 02, 2017 04:44 AM)
He failed to stop s+++ from happening is what I implied due to the life he comes from. I concur that it ain't gender based, it's culture based, hence Laura Linney's speech about him not being driven or too weak and liberal of a person to support Susan cause of say something like Edward's work of fiction happening. Apart from his fictional counterpart, would Edward the author have taken action against people like Ray if they ever attacked his family? Sort of the point of Tony being this passive person at the start of the story is how Edward was when he let Susan sabotage their relationship (Laura) and abort his child (India). And the main theory is that Tony hunting down and eventually killing Ray is Edward taking control of his life and saying he's over Susan because of what she did to him. Or something did happen to him in real life and he wrote this story so that Susan would pity him for what she did and eventually some form of suicide came to Edward's mind after cathartically sharing the novel with her (like Tony at the end of the book). At the same time it's his way of proving his argument about writers writing about themselves too.
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dark_frances — 9 years ago(January 07, 2017 04:03 AM)
It is quite true that living in a patriarchal society is hurting men almost as much as it hurts women, for the very reasons you have listed. Being considerate and empathetic is just as important as having a spine and standing up for yourself, regardless of one's gender. If you split it up in two, then the people supposed to be kind will be taken advantage of (or seen as bitchy when they don't conform to the role), and those supposed to be tough will become cruel and antisocial (or seen as weak when they don't conform to the role).
there's a highway that is curling up like smoke above her shoulder -
dark_frances — 9 years ago(January 19, 2017 04:40 AM)
Well, nature does not give a fvck about many things. For instance, it certainly did not give a fvck about our desire to fly when it created us wingless. Or about our dire need to communicate long-distance when it designed us without computers, network connections or electricity.
Which is why we have developed a habit of not giving more than a flying fvck about nature's design.
there's a highway that is curling up like smoke above her shoulder -
dark_frances — 9 years ago(January 21, 2017 03:49 PM)
Yes that's what I mean, but then I never said the patriarchal society was all, or even predominantly bad. I was only saying that it could be improved, making life better for both genders. Hell, even the notion of feminism was brewed in the same patriarchal society.
As another consequence of this, since it invented, and consequently got changed by, all them weird unnatural technologies, the patriarchal society itself must be as unnatural as feminism (which was the notion I was arguing against in the previous message - that "unnatural" doesn't mean a thing).
there's a highway that is curling up like smoke above her shoulder -
andrewmichaelbrookes — 9 years ago(January 07, 2017 12:31 PM)
You really think that Adams' character left her weak husband for the strong, strapping alpha male because she was insufficiently feminist? If feminism tells men that they don't need to be strong and conventionally masculine, that's a dangerous thing. Because they do need to be masculine. Women seem to prefer masculine guys over sensitive guys. Telling guys it's okay to be sensitive will just cause more guys to be lonely and sexless. Also, stop pretending that it is other men who are enforcing masculinity when it is actually the sexual preferences of women. This is why we must get rid of feminism.
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cajunbluesbaby — 9 years ago(January 08, 2017 03:04 AM)
I married a man who is both sensitive & strong. It takes courage to be kind. He's also a 10 year military vet who's seen combat many times as a military cop. If this happened to us, he'd have handled them. It is not weak for the real Edward to not care about riches or fame and just want to write and lead a simple life. The man in the novel
was
weak. First of all, freaking carry a gun. Be smart, be prepared, & be well trained. Don't try to pacify an obvious group of thugs. They ran you off the road. There's no negotiating. If he had a gun or at least the balls to grab a tire iron from the back of his car and beat the tar out of the leader, the other 2 guys would've run away. That's how you handle bullies, you take out the leader. This guy was a sociopath looking for trouble. Being compassionate and kind is important, however. Just being an alpha male without that turns them into pricks like the sociopaths in the novel. Feminism is supposed to mean equal rights not more rights. Feminism got me the right to vote. Not mad at that. It's shame that a few have spoiled the word for many. -
LukeLovesFilm28 — 9 years ago(January 08, 2017 05:18 PM)
Why do you have to make everything men do or don't do an example of the evil, mythological patriarchy??
I have news for you. That aggression to fight off people threatening you or your loved ones has NOTHING to do with men, masculinity or patriarchy. It's called SELF-PRESERVATION.
We don't need more feminism. We need more common sense.
Get off your soapbox while I play you a tune on the tiniest violin. -
cajunbluesbaby — 9 years ago(January 11, 2017 07:52 PM)
Huh? lol I think you might mean that reply for someone else. Never said a word of that. My husband is a combat vet, 10 years military police. I love that he can protect us that what I was saying. It was frustrating watching a man not fight for his family. Really no idea what you're talking about lol. Might wanna copy and paste that into the discussion you meant to reply to.
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andrewmichaelbrookes — 9 years ago(January 09, 2017 01:41 PM)
So you married a conventionally masculine guy- a guy who has military experience, who is strong, and who would have been able to defend his family from three dangerous men. And this disproves my previous point how, exactly? You are saying that men need to be both strong and sensitive. OP is saying that men do not need to be strong. Your disagreement is with OP, not with me.
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carinosamente — 9 years ago(February 11, 2017 12:23 AM)
I hope this is not a common mindset, being willing to suppress your emotions all for the sake of sex appeal.
There's no doubt that women have a hand in enforcing masculinity (i.e., how Adams' character left her husband because she, like her mother, thought he was weak), but men do too. Growing up I can't even count the number of times I've seen adult male figures tell young boys not to cry because it's weak. Women, often times the more 'traditional' kind, do this too, like calling men who cry "b*tches" or other degrading terms. I've seen feminists denounce this so I wonder why your conclusion is to get rid of it. Buzzwords aside, I feel like it's more dangerous to tell boys they
do
need to be strong and conventionally masculine, because some just aren't. Some are sensitive and they should know that it's okay. Men have the highest rates of suicide and I could only hope that number could lessen if only they were told they didn't need to be strong all the time.