after Donald Trump, that is?
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β 5 years ago(July 04, 2020 08:41 PM)JFK has the benefit of the halo effect and some recency bias. The bottom line is , he was killed before he could complete many of his objectives in office.
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Platonic_Caveman β 5 years ago(July 04, 2020 08:58 PM)
Johnson was a greater President than Kennedy. Johnson and Nixon are the ones who pushed through all the Civil Rights legislation.
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β 5 years ago(July 04, 2020 09:17 PM)Johnson was one of the good ones but he pushed through legislation that Kennedy would have pushed and his administration created. Thatβs like giving the backup quarterback credit for winning a game after the starter gets knocked out and the team already had the lead.
"You had me at Elk Tartare"
-Erin Wotherspoon -
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β 5 years ago(July 04, 2020 08:53 PM)Iβm also glad nobody said Lincoln. Lincoln didnβt really care about slavery, he only sought to preserve the Union by any means necessary and snuff out Southern insurrection. If he could have preserved the Union without outlawing slavery he would have, and he admitted this himself many times.
"You had me at Elk Tartare"
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Platonic_Caveman β 5 years ago(July 04, 2020 09:00 PM)
Lincoln is on Mount Rushmore. But he was the President who ended slavery. That he was racist himself is irrelevant.
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β 5 years ago(July 04, 2020 09:14 PM)Yeah I know heβs there but Iβm talking about who can be considered a βGreat President.β I canβt consider him one of them.
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Platonic_Caveman β 5 years ago(July 04, 2020 09:21 PM)
Lincoln won the Civil War and freed the slaves. I don't know who qualifies as a great President if he doesn't. Again, his personal racism is irrelevant if it didn't affect his administration.
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β 5 years ago(July 04, 2020 10:04 PM)Iβm going to copy paste my response to Kushner:
And the years that followed werenβt that much better for emancipated slaves. Unless you think years of subjugation and persecution post- emancipation was the endgame. A great President would have done everything in his power to see the people he sought to free made equal in society shortly after the war. He didnβt care as long as the Union was preserved.
By Lincolnβs own admission if he could have ended the war and saved the union WITHOUT freeing the slaves he would have. How can you exalt someone for freeing slaves whose freedom he Admitted he didnβt value? You guys learned all your history from American textbooks that exclude these details and nuances, thatβs why.
"You had me at Elk Tartare"
-Erin Wotherspoon -
Platonic_Caveman β 5 years ago(July 05, 2020 02:03 AM)
Oh bullshit. You sound like one of those fools who claim the Civil War was about state's rights. It doesn't matter if Lincoln wasn't perfect.
Martin Luther King Jr believed homosexuality was a mental illness and counseled one young man to see a psychiatrist and "solve it". Should MLK be treated as a homophobic POS?
This is what MLK told a struggling young gay man:
Your problem is not at all an uncommon one. However, it does require careful attention. The type of feeling that you have toward boys is probably not an innate tendency, but something that has been culturally acquired. Your reasons for adopting this habit have now been consciously suppressed or unconsciously repressed. Therefore, it is necessary to deal with this problem by getting back to some of the experiences and circumstances that lead to the habit. In order to do this I would suggest that you see a good psychiatrist who can assist you in bringing to the forefront of conscience all of those experiences and circumstances that lead to the habit. You are already on the right road toward a solution, since you honestly recognize the problem and have a desire to solve it.
https://www.quora.com/Was-Martin-Luther-King-Jr-against-homosexuality
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Platonic_Caveman β 5 years ago(July 05, 2020 02:57 AM)
No, the hell it isn't. You just make light of the oppression of gay and bisexual people.
The young man was told that his sexuality and his love life was a bad "habit", a psychiatric problem which needed to be "solved".
If you had been a young queer lad as I was once, you would not make light of this. MLK was a homophobe. But I don't blame him. He was a good man who looked for solutions to this queer "problem" in the context of the homophobic world in which he lived.
And MLK's homophobia does not cancel out all the good he did by establishing equality in the law which benefits racial and sexual minorities to this day.
It's the same with Lincoln. MLK was a homophobe. Lincoln was a racist. But IDGAF. They were great men who improved people's lives and propelled humanity forward.
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Platonic_Caveman β 5 years ago(July 05, 2020 03:15 AM)
The same way I discount MLK's homophobia. That's like calling Plato or Buddha idiots because they didn't know about evolution. People are a product of their time.
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β 5 years ago(July 05, 2020 03:27 AM)This is a conversation about whether Presidents are great. Youβre bringing non Presidents into it like there isnβt a higher standard for holding the highest office and leading the country. Cβmon dude.
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Platonic_Caveman β 5 years ago(July 05, 2020 03:43 AM)
But the subject became bigotry and whether or not good people can be a product of their times. Your objection to Lincoln was his racism against blacks. As President he ignored his racism and did what was ethically right. That's a universal concept which applies to Presidents and peasants alike.
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β 5 years ago(July 05, 2020 04:12 AM)Platonic_Caveman said...
But the subject became bigotry and whether or not good people can be a product of their times. Your objection to Lincoln was his racism against blacks. As President he ignored his racism and did what was ethically right. That's a universal concept which applies to Presidents and peasants alike.
What did he do after he emancipated them? You realize they were terrorized and treated like garbage AFTER they were βfreed?β The 13th amendment wasnβt a magic panacea for all Black issues in America. They are still fighting for equality in 2020 as we sit here celebrating βIndependenceβ day.
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Platonic_Caveman β 5 years ago(July 05, 2020 04:37 AM)
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said...
What did he do after he emancipated them? You realize they were terrorized and treated like garbage AFTER they were βfreed?β The 13th amendment wasnβt a magic panacea for all Black issues in America. They are still fighting for equality in 2020 as we sit here celebrating βIndependenceβ day.
Liberation is a process. It doesn't happen all at once. Lincoln did his part. History will remember him as a liberator.
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β 5 years ago(July 04, 2020 10:03 PM)And the years that followed werenβt that much better for emancipated slaves. Unless you think years of subjugation and persecution post- emancipation was the endgame. A great President would have done everything in his power to see the people he sought to free made equal in society shortly after the war. He didnβt care as long as the Union was preserved.
By Lincolnβs own admission if he could have ended the war and saved the union WITHOUT freeing the slaves he would have. How can you exalt someone for freeing slaves whose freedom he Admitted he didnβt value? You guys learn all your history from American textbooks that exclude these details and nuances, thatβs why.
"You had me at Elk Tartare"
-Erin Wotherspoon