Like Adam and Eve?
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filmflaneur — 1 year ago(January 12, 2025 09:10 PM)
I am the teacher here and you are the student
…
Patronising noted.
So then: none of those verses I quoted refer to deceit or lying after all? You didn't say, oh teacher mine. What would a reasonable and objective reader say?
I think you'll find things are a little more complicated than that. -
Norwayzn_2 — 1 year ago(January 13, 2025 08:07 AM)
Your assignment:
Present those verses to a Biblical scholar who is familiar with the original Hebrew and Greek texts and ask if they mean what you think they mean.
You are free to reveal that you do not have confidence that your ideas will stand up to scholarly scrutiny by bowing out now. This will, of course, result in an "F" – otherwise known as utter failure.
If you choose to follow this path, you will feel a certain amount of self-loathing. Please try to not let it overtake you. -
filmflaneur — 1 year ago(January 13, 2025 12:30 PM)
Been there, done that. All I find is special pleading and creative exegesis. That is, they accept the fact of the matter, as the texts are clear, but then try and explain it away.
Either they totally ignore the inconvenient truth
https://www.gotquestions.org/can-God-lie.html
https://www.ncregister.com/blog/why-god-can-t-lie-or-sin
or explain it away as part of the plan
"But God does ordain that lying happen as part of his judgment "
https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/does-god-lie
Or by creative exegesis
https://www.cgg.org/index.cfm/library/bqa/id/257/did-god-lie-adam-eve-genesis-217.htm
I have never seen much else by way of a riposte. Sorry about that
You still haven't said why any objective and reasonable person, after reading the verses I gave would not associated your god with lying and deceit, either directly or authorising it. Is there problem.
Please try to not let it overtake you
Patronising, noted; again.
I think you'll find things are a little more complicated than that. -
Norwayzn_2 — 1 year ago(January 14, 2025 09:25 AM)
I have no way of knowing whether you are being completely honest with me re: talking with biblical scholars about the inherent meaning in the original Greek and Hebrew texts, but I know I can trust God. And I know He has my best interests "at heart" because He has changed my life for the better, and I know hundreds of people whom He has also changed completely. Not to perfection – but decidedly better and getting better continuously.
I notice you use a lower case "g" when denoting God. It's been my experience that people who do that are hostile to the very concept of God's existence and very dismissive of Scripture itself. It has also been my experience that those people take joy in toying with believers in discussions like this.
I'm not interested in continuing this discussion if that describes you. If, however, you are searching – you are where I was many years ago and if you are sincerely searching, we can talk about it. -
filmflaneur — 1 year ago(January 14, 2025 06:53 PM)
Norwayzn_2 said...
I have no way of knowing whether you are being completely honest with me re: talking with biblical scholars about the inherent meaning in the original Greek and Hebrew texts, but I know I can trust God. And I know He has my best interests "at heart" because He has changed my life for the better, and I know hundreds of people whom He has also changed completely. Not to perfection – but decidedly better and getting better continuously.
I notice you use a lower case "g" when denoting God. It's been my experience that people who do that are hostile to the very concept of God's existence and very dismissive of Scripture itself. It has also been my experience that those people take joy in toying with believers in discussions like this.
I'm not interested in continuing this discussion if that describes you. If, however, you are searching – you are where I was many years ago and if you are sincerely searching, we can talk about it.
expand
I have no way of knowing whether you are being completely honest with me re: talking with biblical scholars about the inherent meaning in the original Greek and Hebrew texts
Whether you do or not, the links alone I provide exemplify the tactics from apologists : special pleading, ignoring the specific passages in favour of generalisms, and recourse to Command Theory.
but I know I can trust God.
If he uses or authorises deceit for His own ends, and never changes, that may be reckless. If God is perfect in all things then he would be the perfect deceiver, i.e. one which is never suspected.
I know He has my best interests "at heart" because He has changed my life for the better, and I know hundreds of people whom He has also changed completely.
There is no indication that fortunate or positive things in life would not happen anyway, while the power and advantages of positive thinking is not restricted to the religious.
I notice you use a lower case "g" when denoting God. It's been my experience that people who do that are hostile to the very concept of God's existence and very dismissive of Scripture itself.
Not me on this present exchange, that I can see. It is however good English to use 'god' when talking of a deity in general and 'God' when talking specifically about the one deliberate supernatural you apparently prefer.
It has also been my experience that those people take joy in toying with believers in discussions like this.
If your deity is with you and your faith is strong I am sure you have little to worry about. Right? If you do not wish to engage with the sceptical then do not go on a religious message board.
I'm not interested in continuing this discussion if that describes you. If, however, you are searching
This seems to me that you are only happy to talk to those who do not challenge your views - which is a shame, but not untypical.
I think you'll find things are a little more complicated than that. -
Norwayzn_2 — 1 year ago(January 15, 2025 10:49 AM)
filmflaneur said...
I have no way of knowing whether you are being completely honest with me re: talking with biblical scholars about the inherent meaning in the original Greek and Hebrew texts
Whether you do or not, the links alone I provide exemplify the tactics from apologists : special pleading, ignoring the specific passages in favour of generalisms, and recourse to Command Theory.
but I know I can trust God.
If he uses or authorises deceit for His own ends, and never changes, that may be reckless. If God is perfect in all things then he would be the perfect deceiver, i.e. one which is never suspected.
I know He has my best interests "at heart" because He has changed my life for the better, and I know hundreds of people whom He has also changed completely.
There is no indication that fortunate or positive things in life would not happen anyway, while the power and advantages of positive thinking is not restricted to the religious.
I notice you use a lower case "g" when denoting God. It's been my experience that people who do that are hostile to the very concept of God's existence and very dismissive of Scripture itself.
Not me on this present exchange, that I can see. It is however good English to use 'god' when talking of a deity in general and 'God' when talking specifically about the one deliberate supernatural you apparently prefer.
It has also been my experience that those people take joy in toying with believers in discussions like this.
If your deity is with you and your faith is strong I am sure you have little to worry about. Right? If you do not wish to engage with the sceptical then do not go on a religious message board.
I'm not interested in continuing this discussion if that describes you. If, however, you are searching
This seems to me that you are only happy to talk to those who do not challenge your views - which is a shame, but not untypical.
expand
If your deity is with you and your faith is strong I am sure you have little to worry about. Right? If you do not wish to engage with the sceptical then do not go on a religious message board.
My faith is very strong and you have seemingly chosen to reply with the typical derisive snarkiness that is characteristic of a non-believer who finds joy in toying with people of faith.
This seems to me that you are only happy to talk to those who do not challenge your views - which is a shame, but not untypical.
You've ignored the fact that I said:
If, however, you are searching – you are where I was many years ago and if you are sincerely searching, we can talk about it.
You're not sincerely searching. You and I both know what you're doing. -
filmflaneur — 1 year ago(January 15, 2025 12:23 PM)
Norwayzn_2 said...
If your deity is with you and your faith is strong I am sure you have little to worry about. Right? If you do not wish to engage with the sceptical then do not go on a religious message board.
My faith is very strong and you have seemingly chosen to reply with the typical derisive snarkiness that is characteristic of a non-believer who finds joy in toying with people of faith.
This seems to me that you are only happy to talk to those who do not challenge your views - which is a shame, but not untypical.
You've ignored the fact that I said:
If, however, you are searching – you are where I was many years ago and if you are sincerely searching, we can talk about it.
You're not sincerely searching. You and I both know what you're doing.
expand
My faith is very strong
Then it will survive any buffeting it gets here.
You're not sincerely searching. You and I both know what you're doing.
Don't tell me what I know.
It is significant that now you are attacking me, more than what I say.
I think you'll find things are a little more complicated than that. -
Aph the cat whisperer — 1 year ago(December 03, 2024 10:22 PM)
He probably creates things to remind humanity to appreciate what they have and the time they have. And the people who are born deformed are the true gift of the world because they see through and past everyone's bullshit and are pure at heart and truly appreciate everything for what it is.
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Aph the cat whisperer — 1 year ago(December 03, 2024 11:21 PM)
Why even bother questioning it? If everything was perfect we wouldn't be on Earth. We would be in heaven where everything is perfect. We apparently choose to leave heaven to experience an existence in a different form so make of that what u will. I know I didn't choose this ****show of a planet to experience lol
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bigbadwolf666 — 1 year ago(December 03, 2024 11:31 PM)
So U agree that God is capable of creating imperfect things making him imperfect.
Without strife, your victory has no meaning.
Without strife, you do not advance.
Without strife, there is only stagnation. -
filmflaneur — 1 year ago(December 05, 2024 10:22 PM)
God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good.Genesis 1:31 KJV
Something 'very good' is not 'perfect'. God was happy with the way things turned out.
I think you'll find things are a little more complicated than that. -
filmflaneur — 1 year ago(December 05, 2024 11:51 PM)
Well, there is no reason why a perfect god could not want something imperfect. The question is then whether a god which deliberately creates the imperfect is a greater one than one which does not. It ought to be impossible to imagine a greater god than the greatest and most perfect God.
I think you'll find things are a little more complicated than that. -
filmflaneur — 1 year ago(December 06, 2024 01:23 PM)
I was ultimately replying to why, if God is perfect, did he create imperfect things? To which the answer still is, that He can if He wants to, there is no reason why not. He also does not need to explain Himself. However a sceptic like me would find it easier to believe in Him if it could be shown He was logical and coherent in his actions.
I think you'll find things are a little more complicated than that. -
filmflaneur — 1 year ago(December 06, 2024 07:39 PM)
I can comprehend that if a God can do anything, then it can choose to make something imperfect..
'
Also that God 'works in mysterious ways' can be seen as just special pleading. His ways, when favourable to an interpretation of Him, always seem clear enough to His followers then. But if one's mind is too small to comprehend, how then can one, er, comprehend that there must be a reason behind things?
I think you'll find things are a little more complicated than that. -
bigbadwolf666 — 1 year ago(December 07, 2024 12:56 AM)
But Why Would Perfection Want to Make something Imperfect?
Many People Have Questions,
They dont know the Answer.
Without strife, your victory has no meaning.
Without strife, you do not advance.
Without strife, there is only stagnation.