Race Realism
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moonunit-00839 — 9 years ago(December 15, 2016 05:34 AM)
I will try, but it's hard to have a discussion about something you are passive aggressive attacking while at the same time denying it exists. Very insular. Pick one or the other.
He also brings up something that racists often forget, Sub Saharan Africans and particularly African Americans have greater genetic diversity than Europeans and Asians. This means if race and genes were a factor in IQ diversity, African Americans would have higher IQs than their European American counterparts as Dr Tenneseen points out - The fact that the observed pattern is in the other direction suggests that it has nothing to do with genetics.
This is incoherent. It looks like you read something you didn't understand and are trying to bluster your way through it. Yes blacks have greater genetic diversity than other races. But this has no logical connection to higher IQs. It does mean they have greater
variance
(IQ diversity?), and race realists not only acknowledge this, they cite it for their own arguments. Asians have less variance than whites. So while Asians have a higher IQ than whites, there are fewer Asian geniuses hence we see less innovation from them. Whether this is true or not is another argument. -
RedBaroness1966 — 9 years ago(December 15, 2016 05:53 AM)
You have the nerve to call me incoherent??? I may not explain the extremely well known phenomenon of heterosis very well but I was paraphrasing the blog, the author
http://people.oregonstate.edu/~tennessj/Jacob_A._Tennessen.html
explains it much better than me, perhaps you should read it. So why do you think high intelligence can't be linked to genetic diversity? The author isn't saying it is he's just pointing out that from what we know about the benefits of genetic diversity, that would be the logical conclusion. What's your counter argument, other than 'no it isn't, so there'?
Asians and Jews may have higher IQs than Europeans but there's no evidence that it's due to genetics.
Do you want to elaborate on your comment about Ann Frank?
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England. -
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RedBaroness1966 — 9 years ago(December 15, 2016 04:57 AM)
You must have missed this
The scientific method says that you cant infer a genetic effect between two groups when you havent controlled for environmental factors
Despite the fact I said it twice, that applies to Ashkenazi Jews and Asians as much as it does to African Americans and Europeans.
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England. -
untrve — 9 years ago(December 15, 2016 05:00 AM)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Transracial_Adoption_Study
Noose. -
RedBaroness1966 — 9 years ago(December 15, 2016 05:16 AM)
And what exactly do you think the outcome of that study was?
EDIT: Or are you implying that this study controlled for environmental factors? Because it really, really doesn't do that.
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England. -
untrve — 9 years ago(December 15, 2016 05:23 AM)
"One of the studies' findings was the IQs of adopted black children reared by white families did not differ significantly from that of black children raised by their biological parents."
- It controls for one type of environment.
Noose.
- It controls for one type of environment.
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RedBaroness1966 — 9 years ago(December 15, 2016 05:32 AM)
That's great but it doesn't control for all factors which is why there are too many confounders for it to be of any use. Do I really have to point out to you that African American children are still visibly African American no matter who adopts them?
EDIT: It also doesn't take into account something that we know now is very important to childhood development - pre natal environment.
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England. -
untrve — 9 years ago(December 15, 2016 06:12 AM)
True, although to use the words of the authors themselves:
"Trans racial adoption is the human analog of the cross-fostering design, commonly used in animal behavior genetics research. There is no question that adoption constitutes a massive intervention"- so I think it's unfair to just dismiss the study. Nonetheless, I'd like to make you aware that no serious hereditarian believes it's
only
genes that account for various human traits (like IQ) - most people in the HBD crowd are pretty okay with saying it's 50/50.
One of the major observations that I believe supports the race realist position is the universality of IQ scores. Blacks, Whites, Asians and Jews anywhere in the world tend to score quite similarly on IQ testsand the differences are strongest in the least culturally-biased tests, like Raven's Matrices. It's one thing to explain certain trends in one particular country, but it's another thing when similar trends keep presenting themselves in countries with radically different histories, politics, economies, cultures, and environments.
Noose.
- so I think it's unfair to just dismiss the study. Nonetheless, I'd like to make you aware that no serious hereditarian believes it's
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RedBaroness1966 — 9 years ago(December 15, 2016 07:18 AM)
The authors also admit there are too many confounders to draw any conclusions, there are other factors they couldn't take into consideration because we didn't know about them then, epigenetics being the obvious one. It just drives home the fact that you can't control for all environmental factors which means you can't draw any conclusions from them about genetics.
The author of the blog points out that he finds Human genetics boring to work on because there's so little genetic variation in our population. it's hard to find any meaningful difference between any populations, this is something you and other race realists or whatever you want to call yourselves ignore. There's a huge amount of data on whole genome sequences and no support for your theory. You also don't have an answer to his point about heterosis, if genes are important then the more diverse a group the better it should perform. Given that African Americans are an admixed population if genes were important then they should do better at IQ tests than European Americans.
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England. -
untrve — 9 years ago(December 15, 2016 08:18 AM)
Not all hybrids exhibit heterosis.
But nonetheless, I would say analysis of racial admixture actually supports the race realist hypothesis, given that for instance the mean IQ of African Americans - a population with 20% European admixture - is the highest of all measured black population mean IQs (as far as I'm aware).
The Coloured population in South Africa - another mixed race population with European ancestry - scores higher than the African mean.
I expect similar trends for Mestizos and Pardos in Latin America (vs their "purer" native counterparts), but I haven't looked at that data.
Noose. -
Cademon — 9 years ago(December 15, 2016 08:56 AM)
Not all hybrids exhibit heterosis.
If heterosis is vital for intelligence then shouldn't this apply to things like the border collie? They have a bunch of health complications, but animals like Chaser that are purebreds can nearly compete with humans (and probably better than many) at vocab retention and access.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaser_(dog)
https://www.quora.com/Which-is-more-intelligent-a-mutt-or-a-purebred-dog
I don't really have a dog in this race (pun sort of intended) and have really own read Coyne's (maybe now infamous) article about how perhaps classical race categories can be dropped but the concept of race should stay. I did see a Dennett video recently when he uncomfortably had to answer a question on this (the IQ stuff) from an audience member.
Anyway this is another Mutha just dropping by, 40 or so more accounts to go. -
Cademon — 9 years ago(December 15, 2016 09:42 AM)
Pretty much: "it doesn't matter some races are better at some things than others, I don't really believe in IQ/ it's science that has no place in modern society."
At least it was something similar to that. I'll dig up the link later. -
untrve — 9 years ago(December 15, 2016 09:58 AM)
Interesting. Do fill me in
if you get the link. I know Sam Harris has expressed some (quasi?) race realist sentiment before (to my own dismay given back then I was a liberal). Dawkins as well seems to coast alongside Coyne ("race is real but it doesn't matter").
The funny thing is most people in the HBD sphere really aren't "supremacists", in fact there's a bizarre number of Indians with interest in this (like Razib Khan).
The way I see it, just as inequality/difference exists between individuals, it exists, on average, among social groups - which are essentially collectives of individuals.
HBD is only a problem if you have some deeply held a priori belief in the cult of "sameness".
Noose.