He should have stayed away from westerns!
-
Eric-62-2 — 12 years ago(January 24, 2014 08:29 PM)
I too think Hutton was fine in "Major Dundee" for what the part required. Thought he was okay in "Hallelujah Trail" though as an epic comedy the film falls flat. Just one thing about "Dundee", Hob, I think the film's incomprehensibility is more the fault of Sam Peckinpah, not the studio. Peckinpah was the one responsible for the final draft of the script and he basically wrote a film that had no ending and didn't care about fixing it. The restoration took care of fixing two plot points that were cut from the preview version but all the evidence indicates that Peckinpah never shot any sequences that would have fixed the film's other narrative flaws.
Hutton will always be Ellery Queen to me though, because that was the role that he was literally born to play and I wish it had lasted beyond its first season (even though we would have seen it shortened by his untimely death). -
hobnob53 — 12 years ago(January 24, 2014 10:30 PM)
No question Peckinpah was the main problem with
Dundee
, for reasons that went beyond the script. Even so, the studio didn't help it much either. It's too bad it couldn't have been done right the first time. Peckinpah had shown he could do excellent work with
Ride the High Country
three years before, and would do some good work in the future. But his behavior and out-of-control reliance on drugs and alcohol certainly took their toll. But your views on Hutton's performance in
Major Dundee
are the same as mine.
I never watched
Ellery Queen
much when it was on. I saw a few episodes but it was never one of my staples. It's interesting to me that so many people identify JH mainly with that series instead of any of his movie work, though it's true that most of his film roles were either secondary or in lesser or forgettable movies, which was too bad. He'd be 80 this year, had he lived. His personality, or at least his screen persona, was certainly miles away from the sullen, humorless disposition of his son. -
MsELLERYqueen2 — 12 years ago(January 24, 2014 11:46 PM)
I'll say this much: I didn't like the beard that he had to wear for his part in
Major Dundee
.
You mentioned the EQ series in your post. Why not give the entire series a chance, if you have a spare moment?
So you're not a fan of Tim Hutton? I like him, but I really prefer his dad.
~~
JimHutton (1934-79) & ElleryQueen -
hobnob53 — 12 years ago(January 25, 2014 12:39 PM)
Actually, I kind of liked the beard he had in
Dundee
. I thought it gave him more character for the role. And I'm not a "beard" person! But sometimes a person does look better with one, though it would have been inappropriate for JH in his subsequent parts.
Since my post mentioning the
Ellery Queen
series, I've thought about how many episodes I may have seen, both in its initial run in the mid-70s and in repeats years later on the A&E Network, which Eric jogged my memory about. I can't say for certain, of course, but I probably saw 60-70% of them. I don't have to give the show "a chance" because I've sen most of the episodes, besides which I didn't say anything bad about it. It was well-done, well-acted and enjoyable. It's simply that I was never really caught up in it, or in the general character of Ellery Queen. (Detective stories aren't among my favorite genres. Personal taste and all that.)
But that doesn't mean I simply dismiss out of hand a show I may not have been a fan of, or that's in a genre that's not one of my favorites. I can appreciate the quality of something, or someone, even if I don't much care for the show or even the person. There may be a lesson there. To wit:
No, I'm not a Tim Hutton fan. I don't dislike him, he seems like a nice guy, and he's a good actor (he deserved his Oscar), but he never much appealed to me. It strikes me as odd or at least curious that his screen persona is so at odds with his father's: light, sunny and a bit flippant, vs. sullen, serious and grim. (I can't speak to their private ones.) Their film and TV roles followed those personas. Just as Jim could have used a serious dramatic part, so could his son have used a really good comedy role. -
MsELLERYqueen2 — 12 years ago(January 25, 2014 02:11 PM)
The beard didn't look good on Jim.
And okay, I didn't realize that you weren't that much into detective stories until I read that other post and this one. Sorryit's just that I did bump into you on the board for
The Asphalt Jungle
, so I thought that maybe you were into crime/noir, etc. Unfortunately, I can't think of any EQ episode which has more of a war, action, and/or western style to it.
If you want to see Tim Hutton doing comedy, you would have to see a detective series:
Nero Wolfe
(filmed about 14 years ago or so). He played Archie Goodwin in that series, and he was quite funny, especially during the second season. I heard that he did some comedies in the eighties, but I haven't seen any of those movies.
~~
JimHutton (1934-79) & ElleryQueen -
hobnob53 — 12 years ago(January 25, 2014 05:26 PM)
Okay, a couple of things:
I think he did look good with the beard. It made him look more rugged and mature for the role, and it's accurate for the era in which the film took place. He wouldn't have looked good with a beard in, say,
Walk Don't Run
. Matter of opinion.
I like film noir and do like crime dramas and related kinds of films (one reason you met me on the
Asphalt Jungle
site). But I've never been into
detective stories
as such, or really into films or TV shows based on such stories. I may like a film whose main character is a detective from a book or series of books (for example, Sam Spade in
The Maltese Falcon
), but that's because the particular film appeals to me, not because it's a detective story per se.
I'm a bit annoyed by your remark, "Unfortunately, I can't think of any EQ episode which has more of a war, action, and/or western style to it." I didn't say anything that would warrant that sarcastic remark. Your line used a few examples of k1908inds of films I said I liked, took it out of context and turned it into a snide and inaccurate version of what I actually did say. For the record, if
EQ
had incorporated any of the aspects you dragged in I would have thought it was lousy.
Yes, I know the
Nero Wolfe
series. I only saw one or two episodes of it, for the same reason: detective shows just don't interest me; so I can't comment on it, other than I know it got good reviews. I looked up Tim's credits to refresh my memory. He did do a few comedies, more in the 90s than 80s, but for the most part he's been in dramas. As I recall from a couple of the comedies of his I did see he was kind of dour in them toothough that can actually work in a comedy. Besides, none of them was especially good. That's why I said he could have used a
good
comedy. On the other hand, like his father I guess he's cast in the type of roles for which he's seen as best suited. -
MsELLERYqueen2 — 12 years ago(January 25, 2014 11:23 PM)
I'm a bit annoyed by your remark, "Unfortunately, I can't think of any EQ episode which has more of a war, action, and/or western style to it." I didn't say anything that would warrant that sarcastic remark. Your line used a few examples of kinds of films I said I liked, took it out of context and turned it into a snide and inaccurate version of what I actually did say. For the record, if EQ had incorporated any of the aspects you dragged in I would have thought it was lousy.
Huh???? What on Earth was so sarcastic about what I wrote? I just meant that there are no EQ episodes which might have any of those themes. For example, I can think of one film noir that has a western theme:
Pursued
, starring Robert Mitchum. If someone asked me about any noirs with a western theme, I would tell them about that movie. Another poster on the classics and film noir boards has expressed an interest in reporters in movies from the 1930s and 40s, so I recommended to her the EQ episodes featuring reporter Frank Flannigan. Some whodunnits have a war theme to them, such as the British movie
Green for Dan16d0ger
. If someone asked me for a war-themed whodunnit, that's the one I would be promoting.
All I meant was that there are no episodes where, say, Ellery and his dad are in a more "western" setting. If memory serves me right, the EQ novel "The American Gun Mystery" had that setting, but that novel wasn't filmed for this series. The closest to the WWII theme would be the episode "Col. Niven's Memoirs". I should have mentioned that one earlier, but forgot about it. The series is set in 1947, so there are references to WWII in some of the episodes.
Honestly, I'm just amazed at how some comments get misinterpreted on the boards. No wonder I feel most comfortable posting one-line responses!
Those are least likely to be misinterpreted. Although I did have to put up with one misinterpretation of a two liner a few weeks ago. I don't know how this other poster managed to misunderstand what I was saying, but I guess that's how it is on the net sometimes.
Ah well
Oh, and I still say that
the beard didn't look good on Jim
.
~~
JimHutton (1934-79) & ElleryQueen -
hobnob53 — 12 years ago(January 27, 2014 09:10 AM)
Well, since "war, action and westerns" couldn't possibly, remotely, in any way, shape or form apply to
EQ
, how else could I take it than sarcastically?
But I accept your explanation that such was not your intention, and move on.
I guess I shall have to beard Jim Hutton in his den. -
MsELLERYqueen2 — 12 years ago(January 27, 2014 04:36 PM)
I should come up with a list of mysteries and noirs for you that have a war, action, and/or western theme. I mentioned a couple of them in my last post:
Green for Danger (war)
Pursued (western)
I should reread EQ's "The American Gun Mystery". I'm almost completely positive that this novel has a western theme to it. To my knowledge, this story was never filmed.
I'll be starting the Charlie Chan series tonight (third viewing of each of the movies). Seems like they tackled every theme in these films: Chan visits London, he goes to the opera, he goes to Egypt, etc. I'll make note of the films that fit your criteria.
~~
JimHutton (1934-79) & ElleryQueen -
hobnob53 — 12 years ago(January 30, 2014 11:40 AM)
I have both films and they are good, particularly
Green for Danger
. I don't consider
Pursued
a mystery as the term's commonly understood, but I understand your point.
I think in the realm of mysteries I like police-oriented films more than private detective films. Perhaps it's my bias toward officialdom. But it accounts for my liking of such films as
The Asphalt Jungle
(which isn't a mystery anyway) and other films (like
Green for Danger
) with a police inspector instead of a P.I. at its core. I don't have any criteria as you put it (i.e., the western, war, etc., background) for enjoying a mystery; the film itself is what matters. But as I said my bias seems to be more toward cops and less toward sleuths.
I've seen virtually all the Charlie Chan movies so no need for recommendations there. They're fun for the most part. The first batch with Warner Oland were the best, but the next bunch with Sidney Toler were good too. But the series declined after that. I also have the Mr. Moto series with Peter Lorre, which were also fun. But in each case I think it was the characterizations more than the mysteries themselves that made the pictures so amusing. I also own the 2000complete 14-film Sherlock Holmes series. Here too the mysteries are to me somewhat secondary compared to the overall enjoyment of the films, particularly the "modern" ones with Holmes a contemporary (1940s) detective, and of course the casting of the incomparable Basil Rathbone as Holmes, with Nigel Bruce the perfect Watson.
In all these cases, it's the overall nature of the films, rather than the mystery angle as such, that I like. -
MsELLERYqueen2 — 12 years ago(January 30, 2014 03:03 PM)
Pursued
is western noir, not a western-mystery.
And since you have seen so many of these mysteries (like Charlie Chan, etc.), my point here a few days ago should have been clear and should
not
have been interpreted as sarcasm. All I meant was that there weren't any EQ episodes with some of the themes covered in some of those other series.
~~
JimHutton (1934-79) & ElleryQueen -
hobnob53 — 12 years ago(January 30, 2014 06:06 PM)
Well, in its context that wasn't clear and it makes no sense other than as a reference to the film preferences I mentionedwhich were not preferences concerning the type of
mystery
I like, but the kind of
genres
I like. The background
setting
to a mystery is not relevant to me, and since I never said anything of the kind this should be clear. Now, I've accepted your statement that you meant nothing sarcastic. So can we let this go? -
MsELLERYqueen2 — 12 years ago(January 30, 2014 06:10 PM)
OK, hobnob. I was just trying to be helpful earlier.
You're a true Gentleman of the Boards.
Hey, which team are you rooting for in the Superbowl? One Nice Guy on IMDb wants Seattle to win, and another Nice Guy on IMDb is rooting for Denver. I need a tiebreaker.
Which team?
~~
JimHutton (1934-79) & ElleryQueen -
Eric-62-2 — 12 years ago(January 25, 2014 09:03 AM)
"Ellery Queen" managed to develop a long-term following I think more because of the cable rerun exposure it got on A+E in the early 1990s when it ran in rotation with some other short-lived Universal detective shows and people like myself got a chance to see how really good Hutton was in the part. Queen experts also say that Hutton really nailed down the persona of the character as did David Wayne as his father. I think when you bring to life a character in a way that is considered the definitive version it will make an impact. There were several film and TV Ellery Queens before Hutton, but rather tellingly there have been none since because that's how much Hutton is now identified with the role. I strongly believe that if he had lived, he would have revived the role at2000 some point.
I think Dr. Strangelove is overrated too but that opens up another can of worms we've been over in other threads.
-
MsELLERYqueen2 — 12 years ago(January 25, 2014 11:28 AM)
Regarding the Ellery Queen literary character, he went through various changes in the novels as years progressed. He was basically a "robot" in the thirties, a bit of a charmer in the forties, and he had less of a presence in the later books (in the ones I've read, anyway). Jim Hutton spiced up the character a bit.
The atmosphere of the series seems to be based on the 1940s EQ radio plays, in which Ellery, his dad, and Velie hung out together, solved cases, and had an overall cheerful atmosphere about them. Only Ellery's assistant Nikki is missing from the show.
Richard Queen and Sgt Velie of the show are exactly the way I pictured them when reading the books.
~~
JimHutton (1934-79) & ElleryQueen -
hobnob53 — 12 years ago(January 25, 2014 01:03 PM)
As I just posted to MEQ I did see most of the
EQ
shows, in the 70s or in its A&E repeats. I thought the show was fine; it simply wasn't something that particularly grabbed me, since (as I told her) I am generally not a huge fan of detective stories. Not having read any of the original tales I can't speak to how closely Hutton inhabited the character, but of course I have no reason to doubt what you say.
I'm not sure the reason there have been no Ellery Queens on TV since is simply because of Hutton's portrayal. After all, the show was only on for one year, nearly 40 years ago, and its repeats were also now long ago, to a smallish audience. My guess is that it's just a character no one has bothered to revive; I doubt lingering memories of Jim Hutton's performance are discouraging further incarnations. Maybe nobody wants to do yet another period detective piece of its sort. And Hutton was never as closely identified with the Queen character as, say, Raymond Burr was with Perry Mason (or Ironside), or James Arness with Marshal Matt Dillon, or William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy with Kirk and Spock. Who knows? Maybe TV executives today are squeamish about the character's last name! It could be for any reason, even a stupid one. But you may be right, had Hutton lived, he might have revived the role in made-for-TV movies later on, much as Burr did with Perry Mason.
Re
Strangelove
, the issue isn't what any one person thinks of it, but how it's widely perceived. Personally, I like it a lot and find a great deal in it with repeated viewings, but I'm not gaga over it or brook no criticism about it. That's my opinion, nothing more, like yours that it's overrated (although that does imply you think there are some good things about it too!). The issue here was that, individual opinions aside, in broad critical and popular consensus the film is considered a classic: it was well-received by critics and audiences alike; it's ranked by film historians, groups like the AFI and others, as one of the best films of its type, and of the 60s; and audiences over the 50 years since its release have also mostly liked it. It's not a matter of whether you or I agree with such receptions and evaluations, but it's undeniable that these represent the main body of thought about the movie. -
MsELLERYqueen2 — 12 years ago(January 25, 2014 02:18 PM)
In the eighties and nineties, quite a few retro 1930s and 1940s mysteries were filmed, based on novels by quite a few different authors. Unfortunately, after
Nero Wolfe
ended about 12 years ago, the only ones (to my knowledge) still being filmed are the Agatha Christie adaptations, and now even the David Suchet Poirot series is done. I wish that these retro mysteries would come back in style. Another EQ series would be great. Maybe Tim Hutton could play Richard Queen. Hmmmhe's about 10 years too young, but he could be made up to look older. I wish that they would film some of the other Agatha Christie stories, like the Mysterious Mr. Quin short stories. A lot of the John Dickson Carr novels haven't been filmed, and those would translate well to the big screen (if they are faithful to the books).
Personally, I wish so much that someone would film all the Doug Selby mysteries! I've read a couple of the novels and seen the one and only film adaptation, but I'd love to see all the novels filmed, and set in the correct time period (thirties and forties). I'd also like to see all those novels back in print again. I'll take Doug Selby over Perry Mason any day. (Both lawyers were created by the same author.)
~~
JimHutton (1934-79) & ElleryQueen -
hobnob53 — 12 years ago(January 25, 2014 08:00 PM)
Well, you stumped me never heard of Doug Selby. Sounds like an insurance salesman. Erle Sta1908nley Gardner invented him too? Hmm. Of course, strictly speaking those aren't detective stories. Lawyer stories?
Most of the shows you've mentioned, or the "classic" detective characters of yore, are being made in England rather than Hollywood, and this has been true for quite a while. I also think the British are generally more faithful to their sources than are detectives in American movies or TV.
TV trivia: When they were holding auditions for the TV series
Perry Mason
in 1957, Gardner sat in with the producers to give his opinion as to which actor was best. Raymond Burr came in to read for the part of D.A. Hamilton Burger. But the minute he walked in Gardner took one look and said, "That's Perry Mason!" Interesting how actors get roles sometimes. -
Eric-62-2 — 12 years ago(January 25, 2014 09:28 PM)
The solo character detective or private eye has been gone from American TV for some time now for what I think is a simple reason. Today's actors are simply incapable of carrying a series all by themselves. Just about every TV series nowadays is an ensemble piece of some kind. There aren't any more Rockford's or Magnum's who depended on the strong "Q" score of their leads respectively.
-
MsELLERYqueen2 — 12 years ago(January 25, 2014 11:12 PM)
Doug Selby is a D.A. who solves mysteries and has to compete with a crooked lawyer named A.B. Carr. His love interest is a reporter named Sylvia Martin.
The one and only movie adaptation is the 1971 TV movie
They Call it Murder
, starring Mr. Cutie Pie.
After seeing the movie, I tracked down a couple of the books (all the ones I could findnot many) and when I read them, I could totally see Jim in the role! He was so perfectly cast! I wish they had filmed the entire canon back in the early seventies (nine books).
~~
JimHutton (1934-79) & ElleryQueen