He should have stayed away from westerns!
-
hobnob53 — 12 years ago(January 25, 2014 05:26 PM)
Okay, a couple of things:
I think he did look good with the beard. It made him look more rugged and mature for the role, and it's accurate for the era in which the film took place. He wouldn't have looked good with a beard in, say,
Walk Don't Run
. Matter of opinion.
I like film noir and do like crime dramas and related kinds of films (one reason you met me on the
Asphalt Jungle
site). But I've never been into
detective stories
as such, or really into films or TV shows based on such stories. I may like a film whose main character is a detective from a book or series of books (for example, Sam Spade in
The Maltese Falcon
), but that's because the particular film appeals to me, not because it's a detective story per se.
I'm a bit annoyed by your remark, "Unfortunately, I can't think of any EQ episode which has more of a war, action, and/or western style to it." I didn't say anything that would warrant that sarcastic remark. Your line used a few examples of k1908inds of films I said I liked, took it out of context and turned it into a snide and inaccurate version of what I actually did say. For the record, if
EQ
had incorporated any of the aspects you dragged in I would have thought it was lousy.
Yes, I know the
Nero Wolfe
series. I only saw one or two episodes of it, for the same reason: detective shows just don't interest me; so I can't comment on it, other than I know it got good reviews. I looked up Tim's credits to refresh my memory. He did do a few comedies, more in the 90s than 80s, but for the most part he's been in dramas. As I recall from a couple of the comedies of his I did see he was kind of dour in them toothough that can actually work in a comedy. Besides, none of them was especially good. That's why I said he could have used a
good
comedy. On the other hand, like his father I guess he's cast in the type of roles for which he's seen as best suited. -
MsELLERYqueen2 — 12 years ago(January 25, 2014 11:23 PM)
I'm a bit annoyed by your remark, "Unfortunately, I can't think of any EQ episode which has more of a war, action, and/or western style to it." I didn't say anything that would warrant that sarcastic remark. Your line used a few examples of kinds of films I said I liked, took it out of context and turned it into a snide and inaccurate version of what I actually did say. For the record, if EQ had incorporated any of the aspects you dragged in I would have thought it was lousy.
Huh???? What on Earth was so sarcastic about what I wrote? I just meant that there are no EQ episodes which might have any of those themes. For example, I can think of one film noir that has a western theme:
Pursued
, starring Robert Mitchum. If someone asked me about any noirs with a western theme, I would tell them about that movie. Another poster on the classics and film noir boards has expressed an interest in reporters in movies from the 1930s and 40s, so I recommended to her the EQ episodes featuring reporter Frank Flannigan. Some whodunnits have a war theme to them, such as the British movie
Green for Dan16d0ger
. If someone asked me for a war-themed whodunnit, that's the one I would be promoting.
All I meant was that there are no episodes where, say, Ellery and his dad are in a more "western" setting. If memory serves me right, the EQ novel "The American Gun Mystery" had that setting, but that novel wasn't filmed for this series. The closest to the WWII theme would be the episode "Col. Niven's Memoirs". I should have mentioned that one earlier, but forgot about it. The series is set in 1947, so there are references to WWII in some of the episodes.
Honestly, I'm just amazed at how some comments get misinterpreted on the boards. No wonder I feel most comfortable posting one-line responses!
Those are least likely to be misinterpreted. Although I did have to put up with one misinterpretation of a two liner a few weeks ago. I don't know how this other poster managed to misunderstand what I was saying, but I guess that's how it is on the net sometimes.
Ah well
Oh, and I still say that
the beard didn't look good on Jim
.
~~
JimHutton (1934-79) & ElleryQueen -
hobnob53 — 12 years ago(January 27, 2014 09:10 AM)
Well, since "war, action and westerns" couldn't possibly, remotely, in any way, shape or form apply to
EQ
, how else could I take it than sarcastically?
But I accept your explanation that such was not your intention, and move on.
I guess I shall have to beard Jim Hutton in his den. -
MsELLERYqueen2 — 12 years ago(January 27, 2014 04:36 PM)
I should come up with a list of mysteries and noirs for you that have a war, action, and/or western theme. I mentioned a couple of them in my last post:
Green for Danger (war)
Pursued (western)
I should reread EQ's "The American Gun Mystery". I'm almost completely positive that this novel has a western theme to it. To my knowledge, this story was never filmed.
I'll be starting the Charlie Chan series tonight (third viewing of each of the movies). Seems like they tackled every theme in these films: Chan visits London, he goes to the opera, he goes to Egypt, etc. I'll make note of the films that fit your criteria.
~~
JimHutton (1934-79) & ElleryQueen -
hobnob53 — 12 years ago(January 30, 2014 11:40 AM)
I have both films and they are good, particularly
Green for Danger
. I don't consider
Pursued
a mystery as the term's commonly understood, but I understand your point.
I think in the realm of mysteries I like police-oriented films more than private detective films. Perhaps it's my bias toward officialdom. But it accounts for my liking of such films as
The Asphalt Jungle
(which isn't a mystery anyway) and other films (like
Green for Danger
) with a police inspector instead of a P.I. at its core. I don't have any criteria as you put it (i.e., the western, war, etc., background) for enjoying a mystery; the film itself is what matters. But as I said my bias seems to be more toward cops and less toward sleuths.
I've seen virtually all the Charlie Chan movies so no need for recommendations there. They're fun for the most part. The first batch with Warner Oland were the best, but the next bunch with Sidney Toler were good too. But the series declined after that. I also have the Mr. Moto series with Peter Lorre, which were also fun. But in each case I think it was the characterizations more than the mysteries themselves that made the pictures so amusing. I also own the 2000complete 14-film Sherlock Holmes series. Here too the mysteries are to me somewhat secondary compared to the overall enjoyment of the films, particularly the "modern" ones with Holmes a contemporary (1940s) detective, and of course the casting of the incomparable Basil Rathbone as Holmes, with Nigel Bruce the perfect Watson.
In all these cases, it's the overall nature of the films, rather than the mystery angle as such, that I like. -
MsELLERYqueen2 — 12 years ago(January 30, 2014 03:03 PM)
Pursued
is western noir, not a western-mystery.
And since you have seen so many of these mysteries (like Charlie Chan, etc.), my point here a few days ago should have been clear and should
not
have been interpreted as sarcasm. All I meant was that there weren't any EQ episodes with some of the themes covered in some of those other series.
~~
JimHutton (1934-79) & ElleryQueen -
hobnob53 — 12 years ago(January 30, 2014 06:06 PM)
Well, in its context that wasn't clear and it makes no sense other than as a reference to the film preferences I mentionedwhich were not preferences concerning the type of
mystery
I like, but the kind of
genres
I like. The background
setting
to a mystery is not relevant to me, and since I never said anything of the kind this should be clear. Now, I've accepted your statement that you meant nothing sarcastic. So can we let this go? -
MsELLERYqueen2 — 12 years ago(January 30, 2014 06:10 PM)
OK, hobnob. I was just trying to be helpful earlier.
You're a true Gentleman of the Boards.
Hey, which team are you rooting for in the Superbowl? One Nice Guy on IMDb wants Seattle to win, and another Nice Guy on IMDb is rooting for Denver. I need a tiebreaker.
Which team?
~~
JimHutton (1934-79) & ElleryQueen -
Eric-62-2 — 12 years ago(January 25, 2014 09:03 AM)
"Ellery Queen" managed to develop a long-term following I think more because of the cable rerun exposure it got on A+E in the early 1990s when it ran in rotation with some other short-lived Universal detective shows and people like myself got a chance to see how really good Hutton was in the part. Queen experts also say that Hutton really nailed down the persona of the character as did David Wayne as his father. I think when you bring to life a character in a way that is considered the definitive version it will make an impact. There were several film and TV Ellery Queens before Hutton, but rather tellingly there have been none since because that's how much Hutton is now identified with the role. I strongly believe that if he had lived, he would have revived the role at2000 some point.
I think Dr. Strangelove is overrated too but that opens up another can of worms we've been over in other threads.
-
MsELLERYqueen2 — 12 years ago(January 25, 2014 11:28 AM)
Regarding the Ellery Queen literary character, he went through various changes in the novels as years progressed. He was basically a "robot" in the thirties, a bit of a charmer in the forties, and he had less of a presence in the later books (in the ones I've read, anyway). Jim Hutton spiced up the character a bit.
The atmosphere of the series seems to be based on the 1940s EQ radio plays, in which Ellery, his dad, and Velie hung out together, solved cases, and had an overall cheerful atmosphere about them. Only Ellery's assistant Nikki is missing from the show.
Richard Queen and Sgt Velie of the show are exactly the way I pictured them when reading the books.
~~
JimHutton (1934-79) & ElleryQueen -
hobnob53 — 12 years ago(January 25, 2014 01:03 PM)
As I just posted to MEQ I did see most of the
EQ
shows, in the 70s or in its A&E repeats. I thought the show was fine; it simply wasn't something that particularly grabbed me, since (as I told her) I am generally not a huge fan of detective stories. Not having read any of the original tales I can't speak to how closely Hutton inhabited the character, but of course I have no reason to doubt what you say.
I'm not sure the reason there have been no Ellery Queens on TV since is simply because of Hutton's portrayal. After all, the show was only on for one year, nearly 40 years ago, and its repeats were also now long ago, to a smallish audience. My guess is that it's just a character no one has bothered to revive; I doubt lingering memories of Jim Hutton's performance are discouraging further incarnations. Maybe nobody wants to do yet another period detective piece of its sort. And Hutton was never as closely identified with the Queen character as, say, Raymond Burr was with Perry Mason (or Ironside), or James Arness with Marshal Matt Dillon, or William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy with Kirk and Spock. Who knows? Maybe TV executives today are squeamish about the character's last name! It could be for any reason, even a stupid one. But you may be right, had Hutton lived, he might have revived the role in made-for-TV movies later on, much as Burr did with Perry Mason.
Re
Strangelove
, the issue isn't what any one person thinks of it, but how it's widely perceived. Personally, I like it a lot and find a great deal in it with repeated viewings, but I'm not gaga over it or brook no criticism about it. That's my opinion, nothing more, like yours that it's overrated (although that does imply you think there are some good things about it too!). The issue here was that, individual opinions aside, in broad critical and popular consensus the film is considered a classic: it was well-received by critics and audiences alike; it's ranked by film historians, groups like the AFI and others, as one of the best films of its type, and of the 60s; and audiences over the 50 years since its release have also mostly liked it. It's not a matter of whether you or I agree with such receptions and evaluations, but it's undeniable that these represent the main body of thought about the movie. -
MsELLERYqueen2 — 12 years ago(January 25, 2014 02:18 PM)
In the eighties and nineties, quite a few retro 1930s and 1940s mysteries were filmed, based on novels by quite a few different authors. Unfortunately, after
Nero Wolfe
ended about 12 years ago, the only ones (to my knowledge) still being filmed are the Agatha Christie adaptations, and now even the David Suchet Poirot series is done. I wish that these retro mysteries would come back in style. Another EQ series would be great. Maybe Tim Hutton could play Richard Queen. Hmmmhe's about 10 years too young, but he could be made up to look older. I wish that they would film some of the other Agatha Christie stories, like the Mysterious Mr. Quin short stories. A lot of the John Dickson Carr novels haven't been filmed, and those would translate well to the big screen (if they are faithful to the books).
Personally, I wish so much that someone would film all the Doug Selby mysteries! I've read a couple of the novels and seen the one and only film adaptation, but I'd love to see all the novels filmed, and set in the correct time period (thirties and forties). I'd also like to see all those novels back in print again. I'll take Doug Selby over Perry Mason any day. (Both lawyers were created by the same author.)
~~
JimHutton (1934-79) & ElleryQueen -
hobnob53 — 12 years ago(January 25, 2014 08:00 PM)
Well, you stumped me never heard of Doug Selby. Sounds like an insurance salesman. Erle Sta1908nley Gardner invented him too? Hmm. Of course, strictly speaking those aren't detective stories. Lawyer stories?
Most of the shows you've mentioned, or the "classic" detective characters of yore, are being made in England rather than Hollywood, and this has been true for quite a while. I also think the British are generally more faithful to their sources than are detectives in American movies or TV.
TV trivia: When they were holding auditions for the TV series
Perry Mason
in 1957, Gardner sat in with the producers to give his opinion as to which actor was best. Raymond Burr came in to read for the part of D.A. Hamilton Burger. But the minute he walked in Gardner took one look and said, "That's Perry Mason!" Interesting how actors get roles sometimes. -
Eric-62-2 — 12 years ago(January 25, 2014 09:28 PM)
The solo character detective or private eye has been gone from American TV for some time now for what I think is a simple reason. Today's actors are simply incapable of carrying a series all by themselves. Just about every TV series nowadays is an ensemble piece of some kind. There aren't any more Rockford's or Magnum's who depended on the strong "Q" score of their leads respectively.
-
MsELLERYqueen2 — 12 years ago(January 25, 2014 11:12 PM)
Doug Selby is a D.A. who solves mysteries and has to compete with a crooked lawyer named A.B. Carr. His love interest is a reporter named Sylvia Martin.
The one and only movie adaptation is the 1971 TV movie
They Call it Murder
, starring Mr. Cutie Pie.
After seeing the movie, I tracked down a couple of the books (all the ones I could findnot many) and when I read them, I could totally see Jim in the role! He was so perfectly cast! I wish they had filmed the entire canon back in the early seventies (nine books).
~~
JimHutton (1934-79) & ElleryQueen -
Eric-62-2 — 12 years ago(January 25, 2014 06:36 PM)
Probably not a fan of Columbo either, Hob?
Basically EQ was doing Columbo in reverse because Columbo gave you the killer in the first moments and you had to find the clues that would expose him while EQ was traditional whodunit with that great breaking of the fourth wall Hutton would do before revealing the killer. Richard Levinson and William Link who were responsible for Columbo developed this version of EQ.
For a one season show, EQ has had more durability than most others. The other titles it rotated with on A+E didn't develop the same following ("City Of Angels" with Wayne Rogers; "Delvecchio" with Judd Hirsch and let's try to forget all about Kate Mulgrew as "Mrs. Columbo"!) and EQ did get a nice DVD release a couple years ago which is also impressive for a one-season 70s show. And Levinson/Link have also acknowledged that "Murder She Wrote" was basically their way of trying to revive the EQ format in some way (though EQ is a far superior show since the Queen character, as the son of a police inspector has b68a reason to be associated with murders every week whereas being around Jessica Fletcher should be considered bad luck!)
Yeah, there are a few good things about Strangelove, specifically the brilliance of Sellers, but it's supposed "brilliance" as a supposedly spot-on satirical comment of the period is something that reveals more about the critics than the reality of its supposed assessments. -
hobnob53 — 12 years ago(January 27, 2014 09:53 AM)
You may be right about a possible correlation between the dearth of detective shows on TV today and the Q ratings of the kind of stars who once inhabited them on TVthough in the case of Jim Hutton, wouldn't that have been an EQ rating?
One reason the
Ellery Queen
series might have left a bigger impression than the shows you mentioned is that2000 it wasn't a concept developed for television but a preexisting franchise dating back decades, with a built-in reputation and potential audience the others lacked. Of course it was a better series than the others you mentioned (all personal opinion, with which I happen to agree), which probably helped. It's really not
that
impressive that a one-season show got a DVD release; there have been others that lasted only one or two seasons that have been released on DVD (some of them, unlike
EQ
, pretty lousy); but here again, it may in part be attributable to its built-in franchise aspect.
No, I am a fan of
Columbo
, and I was waiting for someone to bring that show up. But in that case it was, first, the novelty of the show's structure (knowing from the start who committed the crime and seeing Columbo unravel the mystery); second, the uniqueness of the character; and third and most importantly, Peter Falk's engaging and skilled portrayal of him. Had any one of these three elements been lacking the show wouldn't have been anywhere near as interesting. (Remember Columbo's first name? No cheating!)
But again, my personal opinion isn't that
Ellery Queen
or some other detective shows weren't good; the genre in general simply doesn't appeal to me all that much. Which even I find curious in that I do like film noir, gangster movies, crime films, mysteries and the like. But perhaps because of the basic repetitiveness of most detective books, plays, films and series murder/investigation/solved as a group the genre simply doesn't involve me much. I certainly do like individual detective series or films (e.g.,
Columbo
) but in such cases it's because of the unique aspects of each rather than being a big fan of the basic concept.
And why am I being defensive about this?
Last comment on the unrelated topic of
Dr. Strangelove
: Clearly, the film's critics dislike it because of its political nature, which in turn is a comment more on the nature of the critics than the film. To me, the whole thing is farce, deliberately carried to extremes; yet it also bears an astonishing, sometimes almost scene-for-scene closeness to
Fail-Safe
, which is why both films have frequently been shown together in theatrical screenings. (Of course,
DSOHILTSWALTB
was based on a
serious
book,
Red Alert
, and the film started out as a serious one before
Fail-Safe
rendered it moot and Kubrick decided to make it a comedy; hence the similarities.) But of course their central point is of the dangers of nuclear war by accident, which is a perfectly legitimate subject.
[To be continued elsewhere if at all: some crank reported me for "abuse" last week over some unrelated comments I made on another board in response to another poster's unrelated comments, and IMDb sent me a warning about being pulled for such abuse. You all wouldn't want to lose me altogether, now would you? Don't answer that. But out of curiosity I checked that person's last posts, and 9 out of 12 had been reporting people for abuse not for bad language or personal attacks (none of the complaints had anything to do with her, as she hadn't posted before her assaults on others), but for going off thread-topic, as most people are wont to do on IMDb. She I gather it's a woman simply trolled for such remarks and then posted almost identical messages saying something like, "This has NOTHING to do with the subject! I'm reporting you for ABUSE!" and then reported me and these other people. Nice of her to first tell us she was reporting us. Anyway, although I don't think the three of us are going to start snitching on one another over alleged "abuse", I'm laying low for a while until things simmer down, and just mind my Ps and Qsor is that Ps and EQs?] -
MsELLERYqueen2 — 12 years ago(January 27, 2014 04:51 PM)
But perhaps because of the basic repetitiveness of most detective books, plays, films and series murder/investigation/solved as a group the genre simply doesn't involve me much.
Well, any genre is going to be repetitive in some way, especially if the movies are from the same time period. For instance, so many contemporary romantic comedies show the leads arguing throughout the first half of the film, and getting together in the second half. Film noir of the forties had certain characteristics to it as well, especially the movie endings, in which the "bad guys" either had to get arrested or killed.
At least whodunnits have some element of surprise: the identity of the killer(s).
I certainly do like individual detective series or films (e.g., Columbo) but in such cases it's because of the unique aspects of each rather than being a big fan of the basic concept.
I've never seen Columbo! I should give that series a chance!
~~
JimHutton (1934-79) & ElleryQueen -
hobnob53 — 12 years ago(January 30, 2014 11:55 AM)
You're right, any genre will be repetitive in some way. I just spoke to my mystery preferences in my reply to one of your earlier posts, but to another subject:
After defending myself across this thread I'm astounded that you've never seen an episode of
Columbo
, one of the most ingenious mystery programs ever put on television. It ran for several years, mostly during the 70s, and Peter Falk's characterization became one of the staples of the medium and a hundred bad impersonators. He also won a couple of Emmy awards for his performance.
The basic concept seeing the crime committed at the beginning, and knowing the identity of the killer from the start outwardly seems sure to ruin the show, but the suspense comes from watching Lt. C5b4olumbo of the LAPD unravel the mystery and trap the killer. Not to mention that most of the stories were pretty ingenious and that the suspects normally weren't the usual lot of cringing, despicable cowards you'd hate. Some were but most were more interesting than that. They developed a relationship with this disheveled, seemingly forgetful detective whom they never took seriously until they realized too late he had trapped them.
Columbo
was much more engaging, intelligent and, yes, suspenseful than the usual mystery whodunit format. Plus very funny.