Atheists, if I told you….
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physics101 — 13 years ago(March 24, 2013 08:16 AM)
If I told you that there is no hell and all you had to do to get into heaven was switch your non-belief in Jesus/God to a strong faith/belief in him as God, would you do it for eternal life?
The difficulty in answering your question stems from the inclusion of "Jesus/God" and determining what you mean by "switch your non-belief to a strong faith/belief in
him
as God". (My emphasis).
I'm assuming by "no hell" that you mean our choice is non-existence following death or eternal existence with "God".
So, the choice really comes down to "what kind of experience would that existence be"? Is there any "meaning" to it? any "relevance"? are we just blissfully "happy" without more? Do we just sit around in some mental state akin to a drug-induced euphoria? or more like those in comas?
Is the "God" you speak of still the "God" of the Old Testament? or associated with the trappings of any religion at all? The indeterminancy in your statement creates misunderstanding.
Eternal existence with the Biblical "God" doesn't hold much appeal to me. Why would I want to spend eternity with an entity responsible for wholesale slaughter of human beings - "innocent" as well as "guilty" - throughout history? or who was so unimaginative that he resorted to the tabloidesque charade of becoming "human" just to be "executed" - temporarily - to save us from sin?
So, I can't really answer your question. I would note that as I get older, the concept of an abstract eternal existence holds less and less appeal to me. -
ostermjr — 13 years ago(March 24, 2013 08:53 AM)
"I'm assuming by "no hell" that you mean our choice is non-existence following death or eternal existence with "God". "
Exactly.
"So, the choice really comes down to "what kind of experience would that existence be"? Is there any "meaning" to it? any "relevance"? are we just blissfully "happy" without more? Do we just sit around in some mental state akin to a drug-induced euphoria? or more like those in comas?
Is the "God" you speak of still the "God" of the Old Testament? or associated with the trappings of any religion at all? The indeterminancy in your statement creates misunderstanding. "
Simply, you go to a place that is sin-free with all the other "believers"(aka, 2 billion people on earth now+ others). An eternal state of joy or happiness isn't necessary or the regular there. That's your choosing we'll say. God in this instance is Jesus, the all forgiving, all loving, all powerful, giving, judgement free interpretation of him.
"Eternal existence with the Biblical "God" doesn't hold much appeal to me. Why would I want to spend eternity with an entity responsible for wholesale slaughter of human beings - "innocent" as well as "guilty" - throughout history? or who was so unimaginative that he resorted to the tabloidesque charade of becoming "human" just to be "executed" - temporarily - to save us from sin? "
What if I told you it was all a test. Life is a test. Bad things happen mostly because of people choosing bad/evil/sin, God did what he did(the slaughter we'll say) because of lapses in faith that the human race was worth saving at times or should be destroyed completely(to believe this, you would have to think God isn't all knowing obviously). But he then changed his mind and decided "they are human, sin is heavily part of their nature, and it's easier to sin than serve others and love everyone. I will now forgive all who believe and tell them about this through Jesus/My son-God incarnate". Take that as the for instance. Again as I stated above. There are many biblical interpretations for better and worse, make this one the scenario.
"So, I can't really answer your question. I would note that as I get older, the concept of an abstract eternal existence holds less and less appeal to me. "
What do you mean by abstract? Physical body? Heaven option? Sin-free world? I'm curious what you mean here and why in-depthly it isn't appealing to you. -
physics101 — 13 years ago(March 24, 2013 11:22 AM)
What if I told you it was all a test. Life is a test. Bad things happen mostly because of people choosing bad/evil/sin, God did what he did(the slaughter we'll say) because of lapses in faith that the human race was worth saving at times or should be destroyed completely(to believe this, you would have to think God isn't all knowing obviously). But he then changed his mind and decided "they are human, sin is heavily part of their nature, and it's easier to sin than serve others and love everyone. I will now forgive all who believe and tell them about this through Jesus/My son-God incarnate". Take that as the for instance. Again as I stated above. There are many biblical interpretations for better and worse, make this one the scenario.
I can't hit a moving target.
Your OP question sort of seemed to eliminate the "Jesus issue" from the question. But now it is clearly back in.
You can't separate the Biblical Jesus from the Biblical God, whom he fully endorsed and believed in. If you want to try to do that, you should phrase your hypothetical something like "assume we have a Supreme Deity X having the following characteristics and attributes .". That way we can discuss things without wondering exactly what you are thinking about, i.e., how much of this Jesus character is the OP really talking about.
More importantly, now I'm supposed to forgive & forget this version of God for "[changing] his mind" about human sin? Do we now assume God is a creator but not an intervenor? or that he purposefully intervenes throughout history to kill or urge the killing of millions of people and/other creatures? Why should such a fallible entity ask anything of us at all for eternity?
What do you mean by abstract? Physical body? Heaven option? Sin-free world? I'm curious what you mean here and why in-depthly it isn't appealing to you.
For example, an apparently integral part of our universe is its entropy - an ever-changing nature. It is manifested by the winds we feel, the warmth of the sun, the changing seasons, etc. Do we experience any of this in this eternal existence you ask about? Is there love? hate? anger? joy? hot? cold? Do we still learn? or are we given infinite knowledge?
Or do we just sit around with a goofy smile on our face feeling never-ending joy? which would seem to me to be no better than non-existence.
Like I wrote, I can't hit a moving target. Nor can I express any desire for an eternal existence whose experiential aspects remain undefined. -
ostermjr — 13 years ago(March 24, 2013 09:49 PM)
"More importantly, now I'm supposed to forgive & forget this version of God for "[changing] his mind" about human sin? Do we now assume God is a creator but not an intervenor? or that he purposefully intervenes throughout history to kill or urge the killing of millions of people and/other creatures? Why should such a fallible entity ask anything of us at all for eternity?"
It's not forgive or forget. As I said and you should all the better know, there are different interpretations and beliefs for many things, "especially for religous/biblical writings". For instance, the bible is full of parables, who's not to say that some are lessons and not word for word stories or some are "spiritual deaths/murders", etc etc. It's not that hard to take some scenario/interpretation as a separate entity and use it as such. 2ndly, as an atheist you shouldn't believe those stories anyway or take the 2nd path as I described to incorporate them as described, so I don't see the issue for you to bring this up.
"For example, an apparently integral part of our universe is its entropy - an ever-changing nature. It is manifested by the winds we feel, the warmth of the sun, the changing seasons, etc. Do we experience any of this in this eternal existence you ask about? Is there love? hate? anger? joy? hot? cold? Do we still learn? or are we given infinite knowledge?
Or do we just sit around with a goofy smile on our face feeling never-ending joy? which would seem to me to be no better than non-existence."
As I stated, it would be a sin-less environment with billions of people in it. Aside from that it's open to interpretation, but likely there is lots of harmony, peace, joy, and positive things going on. No sins, so no hate, no violence, etc etc etc. I don't have environmental conditions, but I don't see why that plays a part in your decision unless we'd be talking extremes which is highly unlikely for the scenario just because you asked. Learning and growth are interesting questions, yes we can learn and grow still, and say we aren't given infinite knowledge but we can obtain it over time. -
physics101 — 13 years ago(March 25, 2013 08:41 AM)
2ndly, as an atheist you
It is a mistake to assume what someone believes based upon what they post upon an anonymous discussion board, particularly one directed toward religion.
It is best to simply assume they have posted to present a certain point and debate the point. Just like debaters in high school or lawyers at trial.
Regardless of how a question is directed or phrased, anyone with intellectual curiosity may choose to answer it. -
jmarkoff2 — 13 years ago(March 25, 2013 09:43 AM)
A common fallacy theists make is to say that God/Heaven is good, but when pressed for details they admit they don't know God's deeper motivations or Heaven's basic description. To declare someone or something "good" requires some understanding of these aspects, so theists who admit ignorance of those fields must forfeit their original claim of saying that these entities are good!
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njiuma — 11 years ago(October 15, 2014 02:51 AM)
A common fallacy theists make is to say that God/Heaven is good, but when pressed for details they admit they don't know God's deeper motivations or Heaven's basic description. To declare someone or something "good" requires some understanding of these aspects
- God is good because His Word proclaims His goodness. He is good, but He is not limited by our human understanding of "good", nor is He subject to our understanding of "good" and "evil".
The description of heaven is to be in God's presence, and fulfilling His purposes. God's deepest motivation is for us to know His love and Him personally, subjectively; share His love with and live sacrificially for others, as Jesus did and exemplified.
- God is good because His Word proclaims His goodness. He is good, but He is not limited by our human understanding of "good", nor is He subject to our understanding of "good" and "evil".
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ostermjr — 13 years ago(March 25, 2013 09:53 PM)
1st, it isn't really an assumption because if you are an atheist, you don't believe in God or any actions depicting him.
2nd, this question is directed towards atheists, so answering it means you are one.
3rd, I apologize if I was wrong, but do you, as an atheist, believe those stories anyway? And even if you don't I told you to take the 2nd path as I described to incorporate them as described, so I don't see the issue for you to bring this up. Why walk around the question/debate for an indirect and unconcious slight on an internet forum? -
physics101 — 13 years ago(March 25, 2013 10:00 PM)
First, you are an idiot.
Second, communication is all about understanding what one person means when a word is used - regardless of any particular belief system that either party to the conversation holds. Since you fail to comprehend that - and you continue to obscure what exactly you mean when you write things like "God" or "God/Jesus" or God as Jesus the son or whatever you have posted above, at the same time saying assume this and ignore that, there isn't any use any trying further with you because I quite frankly don't have the slightest idea what connotations you are bringing to the table when you write about your postulated Supreme Deity. -
ostermjr — 13 years ago(March 27, 2013 09:53 PM)
Or maybe I am giving a what if scenario based on some christian's beliefs. I mean, people can interpret the bible any way they want. Being a narrow-minded, atheist in a thread about openmindedness and opinion is quite rediculous. Especially when you resort to ignorant name calling, when you are ironically ignorant yourself on the topic. Please, the next time you enter a what if scenario, especially on a christian interpretation scenario, know that "NOT ALL CHRISTIANS BELIEVE THE SAME THINGS" and there are countless interpretations and beliefs of the new testament that call themselves christians, as a professed atheist you should be on top of this. That is all and I am done responding to your closeminded jabs.
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mamu2 — 13 years ago(April 02, 2013 06:37 AM)
"It's not forgive or forget. "
Why not? Why would someone want to spend eternity with a being who murders millions on a whim? Out of fear instead of reverence?
"As I stated, it would be a sin-less environment with billions of people in it. Aside from that it's open to interpretation, but likely there is lots of harmony, peace, joy, and positive things going on. No sins, so no hate, no violence, etc etc etc"
Sounds like your interpretation of Heaven is basically Earth without any hate or violence. Nice thought, but is it even realistic? How can that even be possible if everyone is comprised of spirit energy? -
Korios — 11 years ago(June 23, 2014 05:51 PM)
In order to be sin-free you would have to be free-will-free. It cannot be imagined that out of the billions of people in paradise not even one would sin given the chance. So you would have to lack free will, id est be a puppet of god. I think it can be safely presumed that man was given free will by "stealing" the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge. Free will also means that
you can choose to be evil
, so by not knowing evil and be totally innocent you certainly lack free will; so, again, you are a puppet of the creator. So man was not given free will by God, he rather stole it from him.
Fanboy : a person who does not think while watching. -
mamu2 — 11 years ago(June 24, 2014 06:27 AM)
Adam and Eve did not know they we being 'evil' or committing any sin since they hadn't eaten from the Tree of Knowledge to have that knowledge. All they did in their minds was to commit a simple disobedience. Certainly not something worth punishing all of mankind for all eternity.
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njiuma — 11 years ago(October 15, 2014 03:19 AM)
In order to be sin-free you would have to be free-will-free.
- Not true, according to the bible, those who choose Christ are given a new sinless body similar to His, enabling believers to have free will and yet be without sin.
"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city."
"Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life."
- Not true, according to the bible, those who choose Christ are given a new sinless body similar to His, enabling believers to have free will and yet be without sin.
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njiuma — 11 years ago(October 15, 2014 02:01 AM)
Why would I want to spend eternity with an entity responsible for wholesale slaughter of human beings - "innocent" as well as "guilty" - throughout history? or who was so unimaginative that he resorted to the tabloidesque charade of becoming "human" just to be "executed" - temporarily - to save us from sin?
- Because in the greater context of His Living Words, He is love.
He asks you these questions, challenges you to prove Him wrong:
Who is this that obscures my plans with words without knowledge? Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me.
Where were you when I laid the earths foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?
Who shut up the sea behind doors when it burst forth from the womb, when I made the clouds its garment and wrapped it in thick darkness, when I fixed limits for it and set its doors and bars in place, when I said, This far you may come and no farther; here is where your proud waves halt?
Have you ever given orders to the morning, or shown the dawn its place, that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment. The wicked are denied their light, and their upraised arm is broken.
Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea or walked in the recesses of the deep? Have the gates of death been shown to you? Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness? Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.
What is the way to the abode of light? And where does darkness reside? Can you take them to their places? Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
Surely you know, for you were already born! You have lived so many years!
Have you entered the storehouses of the snow or seen the storehouses of the hail, which I reserve for times of trouble, for days of war and battle?
What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed, or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain, and a path for the thunderstorm, to water a land where no one lives, an uninhabited desert, to satisfy a desolate wasteland and make it sprout with grass?
Does the rain have a father? Who fathers the drops of dew? From whose womb comes the ice? Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens when the waters become hard as stone, when the surface of the deep is frozen?
Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades? Can you loosen Orions belt? Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons or lead out the Bear with its cubs?
Do you know the laws of the heavens? Can you set up Gods dominion over the earth?
Can you raise your voice to the clouds and cover yourself with a flood of water?
Do you send the lightning bolts on their way? Do they report to you, Here we are? Who gives the ibis wisdom or gives the rooster understanding?
Who has the wisdom to count the clouds? Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens when the dust becomes hard and the clods of earth stick together?
Do you hunt the prey for the lioness and satisfy the hunger of the lions when they crouch in their dens or lie in wait in a thicket?
Who provides food for the raven when its young cry out to God and wander about for lack of food?
Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him? Let him who accuses God answer him!
- Because in the greater context of His Living Words, He is love.
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graham-167 — 13 years ago(March 24, 2013 02:15 PM)
You're coming at this from a slightly odd perspective for me.
My belief or otherwise in god and Jesus doesn't depend on what I have to do as a result, or on what happens after I die. Those things are irrelevant.
I don't believe in Jesus or god because there is no evidence for them. Simple as that. If you want me to believe in them, then you need to show me evidence that they are real. If you can then I will believe, whether it is easy or not. If you can't then I won't.
I should add, if you could somehow provide proof then I would become a believer, but I would most emphatically NOT become a worshipper or follower. Quite the reverse, actually. -
MnemonicDevice — 13 years ago(March 24, 2013 03:20 PM)
You're coming at this from a slightly odd perspective for me.
My belief or otherwise in god and Jesus doesn't depend on what I have to do as a result, or on what happens after I die. Those things are irrelevant.
I don't believe in Jesus or god because there is no evidence for them. Simple as that. If you want me to believe in them, then you need to show me evidence that they are real. If you can then I will believe, whether it is easy or not. If you can't then I won't.
I totally agree with this. My lack of belief is a conclusion I've come to, not a decision I've made. I can't simply decide to start believing in heaven, I'd need to see some kind of evidence or be convinced by a compelling argument. -
cookiela2001 — 10 years ago(June 28, 2015 09:43 PM)
My lack of belief is a conclusion I've come to, not a decision I've made. I can't simply decide to start believing in heaven, I'd need to see some kind of evidence or be convinced by a compelling argument.
Exactly.
I wrote in a similar thread once, that it's like asking us to "believe" some unseen color (maybe called
pendelet)
(?) is the most
beautiful
color in the universe.when we've never
seen
it.
How can one pledge to believe in something.that one has absolutely no direct experience of/with, or indication of?
.