Jesus died for the world's sins, so why no change?
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Navaros — 9 years ago(October 18, 2016 06:22 PM)
Jesus' atoning death on the Cross was to forgive every sin ever done, or to be done, on earth. Not only forgiveness, but the granting of "amnesty" for the punishment for said sins.
That is halfway true and halfway not true.
Jesus
paid the cost
for every sin [true] and provided a way for mankind to avoid being punished for its own sins [true]
but
that does not mean that every sin is forgiven [untrue] or that every sin goes unpunished [untrue].
Sins are only forgiven and punishment for them is only avoided for those who accept Jesus' payment of those sins and repent from their evil ways.
why has not the world significantly changed in the wake of that salvific death?
Because the world has
very few
Bible-believing true Christians in it. And you knew that very well even before I told you so, which is why you hate all Bible-believing true Christians and slur them with derogatory labels.
In contrast, you love non-Bible-believing false Christians, because they are no different from and exactly like yourself, which is to say, evil.
Ergo, the world has not changed for the most part because for the most part, mankind has remained evil.
If every person in the world was a Bible-believing true Christian, then earth would be much more like the Garden of Eden than the Hell-like place it is now instead.
"Science creates fictions to explain facts" Gilman -
Navaros — 9 years ago(October 19, 2016 03:10 PM)
These being, presumably, the Scottish ones
I have no idea what you are talking about. Scottish can be Bible-believing true Christians - or not - just like any other race. Race has nothing to do with it.
"Science creates fictions to explain facts" Gilman -
raif-1 — 9 years ago(October 19, 2016 04:30 AM)
The reality as it is, is that people on this earth are made up of different beliefs or lack of it. Changing this status quo is next to impossible as beliefs are individual choices and any attempt to change otherwise will lead to chaos and evil being done amongst ourselves. Believers should expect this as GOD given premise because if GOD had wanted everyone to have one true belief, this will be done long ago. IMO, we can still have heaven on earth if everyone respects each other and strive to understand one another. IMO, this is the only way.
If your Lord had so willed (and, denying them free will, compelled humankind to believe), all who are on the earth would surely have believed, all of them. Would you, then, force people until they become believers? ( the Quran, Jonah, 10:99).
And We have revealed to you, [O Muammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ. (Quran 5:48)
http://www.questionsonislam.com/node/13116 -
filmflaneur — 9 years ago(October 19, 2016 06:15 AM)
because if GOD had wanted everyone to have one true belief, this will be done long ago
Which raises the obvious question as to why not. I don't know about what Allah supposedly wills but the Christian deity (which, after all, many in Islam see as the same) certainly
has
expressed the will that all will be saved. ((2 Peter 3:9) "The Lord is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."), see also the declaration in 1 Timothy 2:4 that God wills both the salvation of all mankind and the realization of the truth, all this when "God's will be done".
And one does not have to compelled or coerced to believe; effective and inevitable persuasion is perfectly in tune with free will. Many atheists just wish to be able to make an informed decision based on evidence. To argue that a god does not want to make an effort to bring people to him because they have free will and some might remain obdurate is just special pleading.
You are really mentally ill!
You must be homosexual.
Melanie000 -
raif-1 — 9 years ago(October 19, 2016 06:58 AM)
FF, imo most will still remain obtuse because people are reluctant to change even if they suspect they are on the wrong path because that path serves their lifestyle and how they want to lead their life. Yes, we could question GOD (Allah) way as not giving direct evidence but as I see it, if there was direct evidence and some who do not follow, there will surely be direct consequences so this way (no direct evidences), there is still hope for people. Of course, signs are everywhere and this is a test for people and those who sincerely do not see this, might still have a chance to be saved.
Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (Quran 2:256) -
filmflaneur — 9 years ago(October 19, 2016 07:47 AM)
imo most will still remain obtuse because people are reluctant to change even if they suspect they are on the wrong path because that path serves their lifestyle and how they want to lead their life.
However, making things clear and unambiguous would certainly work to persuade many disbelievers, especially those agnostics and soft atheists like me (for I accept I could be wrong about not believing in God) with an open mind, or with admitted 'red line' events (legs immediately growing back at Lourdes say) which, on occurrence would at once trigger my conversion. God presumably knows this, and what would 'work', or not, with all of us, so why not act to fulfil his own will? If one is arguing that God is unwilling to take this gamble, then why did Jehovah send JC to be sacrificed knowing that even then, obdurates would remain, right down to today? Are you seriously saying that the most powerful force in the universe would not try to secure more believers on a much less stressful basis for fear of rejection among some? Or even that securing even one extra soul would not be worth making itself unambiguous for?
Of course, signs are everywhere and this is a test for people
I am not sure what the Qu'ran says but I do not remember the Bible insisting that the way to God has to be
made
hard. Your words sound like special pleading for where there is no clear evidence for the deliberate supernatural. 'Signs' are seen yes, but clearly not all agree what they are and could be, while they appear most favoured by those determined to see them such as the overly-zealous. A lack of ambiguity instead might reasonably be expected to serve the impulsion to come to God best and work quickly to convince more doubters.
Let there be no compulsion in religion
An informed choice would be nice, though. I wouldn't buy a car based on a lack of firm information and evidence for claims made, let alone invest in a whole belief system. And aren't there quite a few in Islam who take exactly this view over compulsion to believe with severe, and often fatal, consequencies for apostates?
You are really mentally ill!
You must be homosexual.
Melanie000 -
raif-1 — 9 years ago(October 19, 2016 08:25 AM)
And aren't there quite a few in Islam who take exactly this view with severe, and often fatal, consequencies for those who apostate?
Yes, when you're right, you're right. All I can say is that life is a test, test for both believers and non-believers. GOD will be the best judge of them.
However, making things clear and unambiguous would certainly work to persuade many disbelievers, especially those agnostics and soft atheists like me (for I accept I could be wrong about not believing in God) with an open mind, or with 'red line' events in mind which would trigger conversion. God knows this, and what would 'work', so why not act to fulfil his own will? Are you seriously saying that the most powerful force in the universe would not try to secure more believers for fear of rejection among some? Or that securing even one extra soul would not be worth making itself unambiguous for?
I don't see it as a fear of rejection like you put it but imo, this is a mercy from GOD. This ambiguity is always a test and we have been given brains so use it to choose wisely.
I am not sure what the Qu'ran says but I do not remember the Bible insisting that the way to God has to be made hard. Your words sound like special pleading for where there is no clear evidence for the deliberate supernatural. 'Signs' are seen yes, but clearly not all agree what they are and could be, while they appear most favoured by those determined to see them such as the overly-zealous. A lack of ambiguity instead might reasonably be expected to serve the urgent need come to God best and work to convince the doubters.
"Hard" here is an opinion. Some might say the trinity is hard, some may notso who is to say which is harder?
Again with the ambiguitymaybe some help with a link, yes?
http://muslimdebate.org/polemics/atheism/385-answering-an-atheist-question-why-doesn-t-god-show-himself -
filmflaneur — 9 years ago(October 19, 2016 08:56 AM)
This ambiguity (over whether a god exists and which one) is always a test and we have been given brains so use it to choose wisely.
Why should salvation be a test, does the end really justify the means in this way? Heaven and sight of a god is what is good for one not the hard road, or the expense of credulity. to get there. And surely a lack of information in the sense of clear and unambiguous evidence makes 'choosing wisely' far more difficult than it ought to be?
"Hard" here is an opinion.
It is also an observation of what is actually the case, with the world fractured, as always between competing religions and gods. Even within Islam there are obvious, and very fractious, divisions over the best apprehension of your deity.
The following quote shows the topsy-turvy special pleading from the link you supplied:
(then) everybody would be believers. But thats not what God wants
The rest seems to be about the necessity 'tests', which we have already covered and which still sounds like special pleading, or the fact that, apparently, your god has
already
shown itself. So where is he?
You are really mentally ill!
You must be homosexual.
Melanie000 -
Rumble_McSkirmish — 9 years ago(October 19, 2016 10:07 AM)
Point being that for such a major event it basically did nothing and had no effect anywhere on anything, and outside of religious texts has no mention anywhere and is even unknown still in large areas of the world.
Panzer vor! -
marty-130-840283 — 9 years ago(October 19, 2016 08:30 PM)
Point being that for such a major event it basically did nothing and had no effect anywhere on anything, and outside of religious texts has no mention anywhere and is even unknown still in large areas of the world.
it did something, and had an effect on everything.
Jesus's sacrifice provided salvation for your soul, "after death" , not on this earth.
Why do I have to repeat myself with you? Its like talking to a brick wall, the information doesnt go inside your ears or your brain. -
Rumble_McSkirmish — 9 years ago(October 19, 2016 10:13 AM)
I've had this conversation with raif before. This is where the end result was that god does create people specifically to be destined to hell. I'm assuming these tests are to catch these people, you know, for whatever reason so he has a reason to send them to hell, much like he placed the tree of knowledge and his tempting serpent in the garden so he had a reason to dump on humanity.
Maybe to followers they have some justification for this type of stuff (Christians seems to be all God's will and Satan), but to me it just says this stuff was written by people making stuff up based on their outlooks and social hangups of the period because the only other answer, to me, is that people worship an ass hole-ish monster
Panzer vor! -
Navaros — 9 years ago(October 19, 2016 03:38 PM)
I wouldn't buy a car based on a lack of firm information and evidence for claims made, let alone invest in a whole belief system.
Oh yes you would, as
proven
by the fact that you
already did
!
You invested in the belief system of darwinism even though it lacks any firm information for any of its outlandish, extraordinary claims!
"Science creates fictions to explain facts" Gilman -
Navaros — 9 years ago(October 19, 2016 03:28 PM)
Which raises the obvious question as to why not.
"Why not" is because
there is no possible way
to make everyone believe the truth
unless
God forced everyone to be robot-like creatures with no Free Will.
to make an informed decision based on evidence
That's
impossible
, because any evidence God gives you, you will spin doctor away with fabricated alternative explanations.
I.e. God shows you soft tissue in t-rex and triceratops. If evidence was really capable of changing your mind, then when that happened, you would have realized the truth that soft tissue could not be present unless evolution is false, the earth is young, and dinosaurs lived recently and at the same time as humans, exactly like the Bible says! But noinstead of letting the plain-as-day evidence change your mind, you darwinists simply pull another fabricated explanation out of your butts in order to re-validate your religious myth within your own minds.
So too would the same thing happen with any and all other evidence that God might give you.
"Science creates fictions to explain facts" Gilman