The Superior is Obsessed with the Son of Coul?
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Archived from the IMDb Discussion Forums — Marvel/DC
Norrin_Radd_Of_Zenn_La — 9 years ago(February 01, 2017 12:36 PM)
And all he has is a few pictures and an alleged 'Obituary' with a notice that he was an Agent of S.H.I.E.L.D.?
Let's assume that HYDRA agents or Russian spies, or members of the Council left over from Agent Carter took the pics and passed them on to the Superior eventually. Is that the sum total of The Superior's knowledge of events fueling his humanistic angst?
How in Odin's beard does the Kree not pre-date Coulson? The Red Skull and the tesseract both Pre-Date Agent Phil Coulson's confluence with Alien Artifacts. All of SHIELD's files and some of HYDRA's intel were dumped onto the internet by Black Widow but sadly it looks like Helmut Zemo was the only one to take advantage of that information. The Superior, who prides himself on the old ways, probably couldn't figure out how to obtain the intel because he didn't have an onion or some vodka available.
So let me get this straight, Coulson's renewed importance to AoS and his sudden reemergence and ascension to prominence is based on the hypocritical duplicity of Talbot, a feckless though well meaning Mace AND the mysterious nature of his resurrection being challenged by an obscure Russian aligned with the Russian military?
The show is working over time to allow Daisy Johnson to assume the Directorship of a SHIELD that exists only because she is the anointed and chosen one?
I approve this message! -
Norrin_Radd_Of_Zenn_La — 9 years ago(February 01, 2017 01:53 PM)
How is it suddenly NOT about Daisy?
And I don't say that in a challenging way either.- She is
Inhuman
. connection 1 - Her Human DNA was re engineered by
Kree
interference . connection 2 - Daisy would still just be Skye without
Coulson's actions
. ditto - From the opening narration of Season 1, Episode 1 as voiced by Skye (Mary Sue Poots) as a member of the Rising Tide
The secret is out. For decades your organization stayed in the shadows. Hiding the truth. But now we know.. They are among us. Heroes and Monsters. The world is full of wonders.
With a montage of those events showing the Chitauri, Mjolnir returning to Thor, Cap's Shield, Iron Man jetting across the screen
It was Skye attempting to expose the so-called truth in her quest to find her birth parents and discover who SHE really was..
And then it is Agent Phil Coulson stepping out of the
shadows
to the rather surprise of the know-it-all HYDRA agent Brett Ward.
Those same
Shadows
that The Superior says that Agent Coulson, a man, is always standing in. Meanwhile Skye is getting ready to "Out" the soon to become Deathlok and infiltrate SHIELD as part of The Rising Tide.
It has always been about Skye/Mary Sue Poots/Daisy/Quake. The show exists primarily to move Chloe Bennett's character from point A (Skye) to point Z (Director Quake).
Every event on this journey for these Agents of SHIELD has been nothing more than misdirection.
I approve this message!
- She is
-
Socialman — 9 years ago(February 02, 2017 07:56 AM)
Have to admit, at first I was afraid it was another one of those Daisy-bashing remarks a lot of the insecure kiddies seem to spout every time they see a
female
with strength, but you actually make a few good arguments.
A few things though
For instance, that list you made also applies to Ward. I would argue moreso.- She is Inhuman . connection 1
Ward became an Inhuman god. - Her Human DNA was re engineered by Kree interference . connection 2
Her
ancestors'
human DNA was re engineered by Kree interference, not her's directly. Unless you mean the GH325 infusion that regenerated her body, but did nothing more than that because of already present Inhuman DNA. That can be equated to Ward's body being regenerated by Hive (a Kree product
himself
), although he DID get altered on a cellular state. - Daisy would still just be Skye without Coulson's actions. ditto
Ward would still just be Ward without Coulson's actions. Because Coulson actually killed
him
, where he only helped Daisy find her past. He never did anything to
actually
change who or what she was, he was just along for the ride. - From the opening narration of Season 1, Episode 1 as voiced by Skye (Mary Sue Poots) as a member of the Rising Tide
The secret is out. For decades your organization stayed in the shadows. Hiding the truth. But now we know.. They are among us. Heroes and Monsters. The world is full of wonders.
Grant Ward:
"
means we're the line between the world and the much weirder world. We protect people from news they aren't ready to hear. And when we can't do that, we keep them safe."
He pretty much speaks from those shadows, about protecting the world from all the weird stuff in that montage and a whole lot more.
Those same Shadows that The Superior says that Agent Coulson, a man, is always standing in. Meanwhile Skye is getting ready to "Out" the soon to become Deathlok and infiltrate SHIELD as part of The Rising Tide.
Deathlok, someone Ward was adjacently responsible for creating (through his BFF Garret, the
first
Deathlok), while he was already infiltrated into SHIELD as part of Hydra, an organisation set to bring back the Inhuman god Hive.
It has always been about Skye/Mary Sue Poots/Daisy/Quake. The show exists primarily to move Chloe Bennett's character from point A (Skye) to point Z (Director Quake).
Partially agreed. But having a McGuffin as the 2nd main character of a show tends to put the focus on their journey, because it gives the
main
main character (and by extention the show itself) a frame to work with. But at the end of the day, it's Coulson's story
first
, everyone
else
's story (including but not limited to Daisy's) second.
And about "Director Quake", this season has been very actively telling
the comic fans
in the audience that their speculations based on said comics can go right out the window more often than not, this particular one being one of the more blatant shoot-downs. They did that joke
exlusively
to mess with the die-hard comic fans.
Every event on this journey for these Agents of SHIELD has been nothing more than misdirection.
Agreed, including Daisy's.
Fabricati Diem, Pvnc !
RIP Terry Pratchett
- She is Inhuman . connection 1
-
Norrin_Radd_Of_Zenn_La — 9 years ago(February 02, 2017 11:15 AM)
Remember my premise from which the list was started:
The Superior
has this
Obsession
with Coulson because in his limited investigations Coulson is the nexus for all things related to Inhumans, Chitauri, and the Kree. Really????
It is by extrapolation that my little non-comprehensive treatise lends itself to Director Quake being a
fait accompli
and was explicitly not Daisy bashing. The show throwing in verbal Easter Eggs rewarding the fans is one thing but the ascension is not denied and borne out by her position within the team and her rapid role to prominence. What ever happened to The Secret Warriors?? The show is both adroitly conceived and clumsily executed such that Daisy is the only logical heir to the Directorship. It was baked into the DNA of the show just like her DNA has Kree manipulated characteristics and Inhuman genetic markers.
Foreshadowed, Telegraphed but not intelligently designed.
The superior
had a revealing quote that suggests his motivations:
These Inhumans, they did not suffer, labor, to become what they are. They have great power but they did not
earn
it. They are unnatural things.
The character of Skye/Daisy/Quake has always been acted as if she was "The Chosen One", "The Anointed One", "The Appointed One" and as Raina told Skye at Afetrlife:
It is you who are destined to lead the Inhumans.
So according to Raina's Inhuman enabled visions, Daisy is
"The Destined one"
. That wasn't presented as a joke to
mess with the comic fans
. So yes there are a lot of fans of the show who throw up a little bit in their collective mouths at a character that seems less deserving of this much attention and focus on the show and there are also fans that regale themselves in that aura of pre-determination.
The Superiors
introduction into the proceedings of the plot appear to only be for the sake of destabilizing the existence of Agent Coulson as the Shadow Director while Agent Mace is the faux face Director whose demise appears to be eminent which would leave a power vacuum. President Ellis wanted a powered person to lead the reconstituted SHIELD but he was given a steroided Agent Mace (
another one of those connections that leads RIGHT back to Daisy Johnson through her dad Calvin Szabo
).
All of this misdirection based on the limited data collected by
The Superior
that doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Limited Russian intelligence is bad intelligence which leads to inconsequential actions and outcomes.
Ward became an Inhuman god.
Ward did not become an Inhuman. His re-animated body was possessed by an Inhuman. And Hive was no God. He dressed more like Neo and Neo wasn't a god either.
Her ancestor's human DNA was re engineered by Kree interference, not her's directly.
Yes, her Human DNA was re-engineered by The Kree and she inherited her DNA from two parents. One Human and one Inhuman. Daisy did not ask for this and Cal had no way of knowing what Jaiyang was bestowing on their to be conceived child. Daisy likes to throw around that Inhumanism is NOT a virus well that means that each Inhuman is a by-product of direct gene manipulation.
Grant Ward: "
means we're the line between the world and the much weirder world. We protect people from news they aren't ready to hear. And when we can't do that, we keep them safe." He pretty much speaks from those shadows, about protecting the world from all the weird stuff in that montage and a whole lot more.
Except Grant Ward is a double agent working for HYDRA and doesn't believe a word that he said. Ward also didn't believe in HYDRA. Ward may be a
shadowy
character but he was neither the genesis nor was he the catalyst for anything remotely related to alien manifestations on Earth.
Deathlok, someone Ward was adjacently responsible for creating (through his BFF Garret, the first Deathlok), while he was already infiltrated into SHIELD as part of Hydra, an organisation set to bring back the Inhuman god Hive.
Ward's tenuous relationship with the soon to become Deathlok, Mike Richardson is undercut by the fact of the pseudo First Deathlok that he followed. We don't know when Ward found out that Garrett was enhanced because of his injuries but Ward did nothing to create an incident that
The Superior
should have been able to figure out that was publicly available which was the point.
Partially agreed. But having a McGuffin as the 2nd main character of a show tends to put the focus on their journey, because it gives the main main character (and by extension the show itself) a frame to work with. But at the end of the day, it's Coulson's story first, everyone else's story (including but not limited to Daisy's) second.
AoS did indeed get launched on the fan power and adoration for Clark Gregg but from the opening voice-over the show was never really about Agent Phil Coulson. The show was never about SHIELD. It was curiously about THESE specific Agents of SHIELD with the primary focus about Skye. It is my belief that viewership dwindled when the show became less directly about Co -
Geek_XX — 9 years ago(February 02, 2017 12:05 PM)
You have made some very valid points and I have been very harsh about Skye/Daisy/Quake/Insert Nickname here in the past, however, I do have to point out that the show has been losing viewers since it officially became the Quake origin story since Season 2.
I don't have a problem with Daisy being Quake story but when an entire season is focused on her being the main character takes the essence away from what viewers thought the show was about.
I was actually relieved to see that Daisy was not the primary focus of Season 4 so far and that the entire cast is getting a good share of screen time and storylines to allow the viewers to see who each person really is.
Unfortunately, this is too late. We should have seen more character developments of all the other principal players back in Season 1 and 2.
We still don't even know anything about Coulson. Remember, the show wouldn't happen if it weren't for him. -
Norrin_Radd_Of_Zenn_La — 9 years ago(February 02, 2017 12:59 PM)
First I applaud you for reading that very long winded essay. But you'll notice I never stated a judgement good nor bad to what I observed about the show and Skye/Daisy/Quake. The show had begun a normal slide of losing viewers before Quake was introduced. The show being focused too directly and indirectly on Skye/Daisy/Quake has been done at the expense of the other cast. For me the most powerful actor on the show is Ian as Fitz. He has truly given some powerful and wonderful performances and moments. Clearly he's not hurting the show but his presence isn't building the show's eyeball ratings. And like most shipping on the show the writers teased him and Simmons far too long to the point that it appears most viewers didn't care any more.
We still don't even know anything about Coulson. Remember, the show wouldn't happen if it weren't for him.
We learned a bit about Coulson outside of AoS before his presence on the show and in my non-expert opinion he was nothing more than bait to bring in viewers. During the show little bits of personal details were dropped into the show about his girlfriend, where he grew up, his dad, Lola, how he got into SHIELD, etc but it all revolved with something to do with Daisy. We learn about Mack and his brothers as an off-shoot of the Watchdog's story-line which is again about Daisy.
We learn about May and Andrew and what do you know? It goes right back to Daisy and Inhumans.
Whether or not this drove fans away I don't know but viewership is down and of course shifting from live broadcast viewing. My personal reaction to the show is that there is too much mis-direction and plot threads that go nowhere because they were not about Daisy and or Inhumans. I mean when AoS even made the genesis of HYDRA about Inhumans I literally threw my hands up in despair. That was almost my bridge too far.
I approve this message! -
caseyrook — 9 years ago(February 01, 2017 01:39 PM)
Yes, but Coulson has been there for nearly all of Earth's contact with alien events in the present day.
Think about it:
Thor's Hammer.
Sif Coming To Earth, both times.
Vin-Tak coming to Earth.
The Kree Wreapers coming to Earth.
And these are just the ones the public knows about now.
The Superior may know that Coulson himself and two members of his team have been to, and came back from, an alien planet.
Hell, he may even know about the Coulson's handy dandy Kree blood he's got going on -
Norrin_Radd_Of_Zenn_La — 9 years ago(February 01, 2017 02:11 PM)
Which is why I stated that
The Superior
has
Inferior
knowledge as part of his
Obsession
.
What the episode is trying to imply, albeit directly and not too subtly, is that Agent Coulson
IS
SHIELD. Coulson wasn't there when Loreli shows up. Coulson wasn't there when the Berseker staff was located. And as you said there are those events that the alleged public knows about. The Superior fancied himself obsessed but has so limited knowledge of events and what should be conspiracies around Agent Coulson and all these "other" events.
You have HYDRA operating an entire arm of their organization tasked with bringing back an unknown entity from somewhere and
The Superior
(who is obsessed with Coulson and extra-terrestrial events) has no knowledge because it wasn't public?
Both he and Senator Nadeer are rather ill-informed. Don't you think?
I approve this message! -
caseyrook — 9 years ago(February 01, 2017 02:29 PM)
The problem is, we don't know the extent to which the Team (Coulson, May, Fitz, Simmons, Mack, Daisy) have spilled the beans about everything that happened in the three and a half years of SHIELD being an underground spy organization.
For instance, the team (and Talbot) knows that Daisy and Coulson have Kree blood in their systems.
Did that become common knowledge with the regime change?
Did the team ever release information about Maveth? Sure Talbot knew that Hive came from Maveth, but did he know that Simmons spent 6 months there? Or that Coulson and Fitz were there too.
Besides Rosalind, did Malick tell anyone else outside of Coulson's team about TAHITI?
Does anyone outside of the team know that Coulson went cuckoobird because of the Kree blood?
Does the regular world know about Afterlife
We don't know the logistics of Coulson stepping down and Mace taking over.
Did Talbot, The UN, and Congress just seize literally every file that SHIELD had and learn everything?
Did the the Team even document those things or did Coulson tell them not too and store everything in The Toolbox?
Unless we get answers to these questions, we can't know how much the Superior, Nadeer, or anyone else unaffiliated with SHIELD knows about Coulson and his shenanigans. -
Norrin_Radd_Of_Zenn_La — 9 years ago(February 01, 2017 02:49 PM)
Everything you stated is true but is also a misdirection as to what
The Superior
knows or doesn't know.
The pic of Coulson standing at the Crash site of Mjolnir wasn't public knowledge and or publicly accessible. He (Phil Coulson) had to have been under surveillance. The pic of Agent Coulson inside the containment facility wasn't publicly accessible either. Those pics were also taken before the Battle of NY and his death.
The pic of Coulson at the lock-up where Robbie Reyes' uncle was held seemed to have been supplied by Senator Nadeer and it was before Phil was outed as being alive.
I'm only dealing with
The Superior's
so-called
Obsession
and the show's attempt to normalize or even legitimize their reason for keeping his death a secret. What I think the show is trying to do is create a consequence for keeping Phil's death a secret or even a reason as to why his apparent resurrection would be such a valuable piece of information.
Truth be told why and how would
The Superior
not just surmise that Coulson's death was nothing more than a clever or even not-too-clever ruse. Fake deaths are a dime a dozen in the real world and also on AoS. Witness protection any one?
No, apparently
The Superior
is insane and wants to figure out just who Phil Coulson really is based on some very tenuous connections between Coulson and a few extra-terrestrial events that even the public is aware of and some that the public isn't aware of.
I approve this message! -
DoTheMath — 9 years ago(February 01, 2017 04:34 PM)
The pic of Coulson standing at the Crash site of Mjolnir wasn't public knowledge and or publicly accessible. He (Phil Coulson) had to have been under surveillance. The pic of Agent Coulson inside the containment facility wasn't publicly accessible either. Those pics were also taken before the Battle of NY and his death.
From the transcript:
We have a match. Leo Babikov.
Ex-SVR, Special Ops
The same Special Ops division the two men who tried to assassinate the Director were in.
And there's our link to Nadeer.
Get this.
They all have ties to Prime Minister Olshenko.
The Russian Prime Minister who was attacked by an Inhuman
And then threw Bobbi and Hunter under the bus after they saved his life. This is bad. We got Nadeer, International Watchdogs, and Russian spies all united because Because they hate Inhumans.
Yeah, that's why they want the Darkhold.
My take:
The Superior is a salivating attack dog that was given a directive by the Russian Prime Minister. SuperDoggie is drinking the Russian Pres' kool-aide. The Russ Pres gave SuperDoggie all the intel the Russ Pres could dig up on born again Phil.
Russ Pres was attack by an Inhuman so now he's all "kill 'em all". Plus, remember, Coulson embarrassed the RussPres in Parting Shot. Ye ole Russ Press probably got back home and got some subservient dogs to lick his wounds for him and bolster his ego then he decided he'd set out on a vendetta against Son of Coul to save face.
It's like Russia is the New Hydra with Russ Pres as the Head, and SuperDoggie is the Bakshi/List/Zola.
WW III, anybody?
RIP 616
#TimeForMoreAmadore -
Norrin_Radd_Of_Zenn_La — 9 years ago(February 01, 2017 05:23 PM)
My take:
The Superior is a salivating attack dog that was given a directive by the Russian Prime Minister. SuperDoggie is drinking the Russian Pres' kool-aide. The Russ Pres gave SuperDoggie all the intel the Russ Pres could dig up on born again Phil.
Russ Pres was attack by an Inhuman so now he's all "kill 'em all". Plus, remember, Coulson embarrassed the RussPres in Parting Shot. Ye ole Russ Press probably got back home and got some subservient dogs to lick his wounds for him and bolster his ego then he decided he'd set out on a vendetta against Son of Coul to save face.
It's like Russia is the New Hydra with Russ Pres as the Head, and SuperDoggie is the Bakshi/List/Zola.
WW III, anybody?
The Russian connection to
The Superior's
Obsession is indeed implied and the Russian connection was being manipulated by Malick. Anton Petrov was the Russian Attache who was negotiating and politicking for an Inhuman Sanctuary within Russian borders. A Russian General of Defense (An Inhuman) wanted to lead that Sanctuary and was killed by Bobbie. The Russian PM wanted to save face and had to explain how and why three high ranking government officials were killed and the Russian PM didn't want to mention a coup. At that point Phil was introduced to the Russian Dmitri not as Phil Coulson but as the Advisor to the ATCU investigating Advanced Threats.
So yes there is some payback by the Russians implied and unfulfilled because the countries were in a rather obvious arms race for Inhuman weapons. The Russians probably still want those weapons.
The Superior could be someone as simple as a deranged and jealous Russian soldier who suddenly feels obsoleted by the uprising of these new and soon to be weaponized Inhumans once the Russians get their hands on some.
I approve this message! -
DoTheMath — 9 years ago(February 01, 2017 06:18 PM)
I don't think that SuperDoggie is "top dog"; I think he's a lap dog.
I think since The Russian PM doesn't have Malick offering him the moon anymore, he's done a Inhumans Policy 180 in order to cover the fact that he was kissing Hydra buns and wants revenge on Coulson for embarrassing him in front of POTUS.
Sounds Putin-ny to me.
RIP 616
#TimeForMoreAmadore -
caseyrook — 9 years ago(February 01, 2017 05:09 PM)
I can't explain the pic of Coulson visiting Eli in prison, but whose to say a SHIELD agent didn't screen grab that shot of Phil standing above Mjilnor from a security camera?
That pic would have been. Uploaded online when Black Widow uploaded everything to the internet. -
Norrin_Radd_Of_Zenn_La — 9 years ago(February 01, 2017 05:37 PM)
I can't explain the pic of Coulson visiting Eli in prison, but whose to say a SHIELD agent didn't screen grab that shot of Phil standing above Mjilnor from a security camera?
It might have been The Land of Enchantment but they were out in the middle of nowhere with no security camera around for 50 miles.
Phil visited the site by himself and called Fury. But it doesn't matter anyway.
The Superior
had a still and there had to be surveillance that would not have been publicly available.
I approve this message! -
caseyrook — 9 years ago(February 02, 2017 10:48 AM)
I was talking about the pic of Coulson standing on the scaffolding inside the 'bubble' around Mjilnor.
If you want an explanation for the other picture of him arriving at the 084 site, I can give you two.- This involves suspension of disbelief: Whose to say a satellite couldn't have seen him at that angle and someone got his picture?
- This one is real world and applies to all of the pictures that we see: The AoS Production needed pics of Clark Gregg in the movies.
They didn't have time or resources to take brand new pics and fit them into the show so they just pulled stills from the movies.
Also, they were just concerned about us, the audience, understanding that this Captain had an obsession with Coulson. We're not really meant to question how he got his hands on those particular pics.
I'm personally choosing to go with the second choice. Yes, it's annoying that they just went with stills from the movies and AoS with CG in them, and it doesn't make sense when you think about it, but whatever.
It's a slight nitpick when you consider how hard everyone works on the show and for how long.
I can let it slide.
-
Norrin_Radd_Of_Zenn_La — 9 years ago(February 02, 2017 03:47 PM)
I was talking about the pic of Coulson standing on the scaffolding inside the 'bubble' around Mjilnor.
If you want an explanation for the other picture of him arriving at the 084 site, I can give you two.
Sorry about that. I'm apparently exhibiting some of the same limited abilities of reading and deduction as
The Superior
.
My point about all of his pictures were that they were not publicly available intel and that his acquired intel was so faulty and or limited that he made this great leap to Phil Coulson being the cause of and solution to all of the Kree, Inhuman and Chitauri problems?!!!! What the Deuce!!!
They didn't have time or resources to take brand new pics and fit them into the show so they just pulled stills from the movies.
It is not so much about the pictures but his rationale for using any pics like that to form an intelligence decision or intelligence action against Phil Coulson and NOT SHIELD itself.
Unless the show is explicitly trying to suggest that Phil Coulson
IS
SHIELD. Why isn't it Nick Fury from the POV of
The Superior
?
I'm personally choosing to go with the second choice. Yes, it's annoying that they just went with stills from the movies and AoS with CG in them, and it doesn't make sense when you think about it, but whatever.
Again, I'm not questioning the photos themselves just how
The Superior
used them to connect some rather strange unseen dots between Phil Coulson and the few extraterrestrial events that he is aware of.
It's a slight nitpick when you consider how hard everyone works on the show and for how long.
That is a rather odd reason to suggest a rationale or defense of the staff of the show when in essence no one is attacking them. Last time I checked they all get paid for what they do. When they toil hard, perseverating over details, trying to get it right just for us fans.
They are rewarded with a paycheck.
They are NOT doing favors for us as fans. Again, no one is blaming or attacking them for anything any way.
I can give you the one thing that even the great Galactus needs!