Beethoven's Eroica voted greatest symphony of all time by conductors
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Eva_Yojimbo — 9 years ago(August 05, 2016 09:00 AM)
While I somewhat agree that the finale of Beethoven's 9th doesn't hold up well with repeat listens, the first three movements do, and I think the finale is one of those works that was so revolutionary for the time and can make such an impact on a first listen, that it doesn't really matter how well it holds up afterwards; if that makes sense.
Brahms's 4th is beloved because of its musical sophistication; it's basically the apotheosis of Brahms's classicism, eschewing the paradigm of romantic expression for pure musical formalism, especially the 4th movement: see the famous quote by Haslick about it that: "For this whole movement I had the feeling that I was being given a beating by two incredibly intelligent people."
I'm also puzzled why Mahler's 3rd is there over his 5th, or even the rather beloved 4th. Agree about Tchaikovsky not being in the same league, but I'm one of the few for whom his 6th does nothing for.
warriorspirit
: if the penis is used as a pencil holder we'll incur a cost. -
Eva_Yojimbo — 9 years ago(August 05, 2016 09:00 AM)
While I somewhat agree that the finale of Beethoven's 9th doesn't hold up well with repeat listens, the first three movements do, and I think the finale is one of those works that was so revolutionary for the time and can make such an impact on a first listen, that it doesn't really matter how well it holds up afterwards; if that makes sense.
Brahms's 4th is beloved because of its musical sophistication; it's basically the apotheosis of Brahms's classicism, eschewing the paradigm of romantic expression for pure musical formalism, especially the 4th movement: see the famous quote by Haslick about it that: "For this whole movement I had the feeling that I was being given a beating by two incredibly intelligent people."
I'm also puzzled why Mahler's 3rd is there over his 5th, or even the rather beloved 4th. Agree about Tchaikovsky not being in the same league, but I'm one of the few for whom his 6th does nothing for.
warriorspirit
: if the penis is used as a pencil holder we'll incur a cost. -
fontinau — 9 years ago(August 05, 2016 01:26 PM)
The Tchaikovsky 6th may be the most original symphony since the Fantastique.
No way. If ending a symphony slow and quiet - i.e. doing what early Haydn did sometimes - is really so original, Brahms did it first anyway (and HE did it in a way Haydn never did - gradually winding down from fast and loud). -
fontinau — 9 years ago(August 08, 2016 12:40 PM)
On the other hand, if we follow Richard Taruskin's argument that Tchaikovsky represents a different symphonic tradition than Brahms - Italian opera influenced, and descending from Mozart and Schubert, with self-contained melodies as important as motivic development - then maybe you can make a case for the Pathétique as revolutionary in that it represents the culmination of Tchaikovsky's efforts in that direction.
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Eva_Yojimbo — 9 years ago(August 06, 2016 10:15 AM)
- It's not original in the slightest (see fonti's response).
- It lacks anything of real musical value. It gets by because many have a profound emotional response to it, which completely escapes me. I've always found it utterly dull and prefer Tchaikovsky's previous two symphonies; though I'd also contend his 1st Piano Concerto is probably his greatest creation.
warriorspirit
: if the penis is used as a pencil holder we'll incur a cost.
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fontinau — 9 years ago(August 06, 2016 01:22 PM)
- It lacks anything of real musical value. It gets by because many have a profound emotional response to it, which completely escapes me.
This I don't agree with. I'll trade you all the musical value in, I don't know, let's say Bruckner, for THE theme - you know the one. And the arrival of the long-withheld forte rendition of the main theme of the third movement sets my hair on fire.
- It lacks anything of real musical value. It gets by because many have a profound emotional response to it, which completely escapes me.
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Eva_Yojimbo — 9 years ago(August 06, 2016 02:00 PM)
All I can say is that neither THE theme, nor the forte rendition in the third movement, do anything for me. I'm not the biggest Bruckner fan (though I'm warming to him more than I used to be), but I'd say I enjoy the scherzo of the 9th symphony more than anything in Tchaikovsky's 6th. It occurred to me the other day when discussing rhythm VS melody in music that it sounds vaguely like the Danse des Adolescentes in Rite of Spring.
On a side note, speaking of Bruckner, all his late Scherzos make me curious about his sense of what a joke is. Given their monumental, mechanized momentum he probably would've found a panzer assault a laugh riot.
warriorspirit
: if the penis is used as a pencil holder we'll incur a cost. -
fontinau — 9 years ago(August 06, 2016 02:34 PM)
On a side note, speaking of Bruckner, all his late Scherzos make me curious about his sense of what a joke is. Given their monumental, mechanized momentum he probably would've found a panzer assault a laugh riot.
Or a Valkyrie charge. Compare the scherzo in 8 with Wagner's ride of the. -
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fontinau — 9 years ago(August 08, 2016 12:42 PM)
Well here's an argument for THE theme: You once singled out the Pas de deux from Stravinsky's Apollo, and I said it sounds to me like it starts as "Wie die Blumen im Lenze erblüh'n" from Léhar's The Merry Widow and soon becomes Satie's "Je te veux" - but what I've noticed since then is that the passage that links the two together seems to be copied from the climax of drumroll THE theme by Tchaikovsky.
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Eva_Yojimbo — 9 years ago(August 08, 2016 01:53 PM)
Hmmm, interesting. Will have to listen to all three to see if I hear the connection. Still haven't gotten around to The Merry Widow, though (opera listening been dominated by Verdi recently).
warriorspirit
: if the penis is used as a pencil holder we'll incur a cost. -
Eva_Yojimbo — 9 years ago(August 08, 2016 03:21 PM)
Not really. I tried to go chronologically with those I had, because before then my Verdi listening had been rather sporadic and I wanted to try to hear his evolution. I did listen to several multiple times though, mostly on DVD/blu-rays. Still think Otello is his masterpiece, with Falstaff and Don Carlo not far behind, and La Traviata the next step down. Still can't quite get into Ballo and Forza or most of the early stuff. Rigoletto's power seems to lessen the more I hear it; Il Trovatore is still superficially fun. Aida still strikes me as weird; like Verdi doing an impression of Parsifal-era Wagner in a way combined with a kind of Rennaissance-music stasis. I don't think it works as a whole, but it's haunting in a way most Verdi isn't.
warriorspirit
: if the penis is used as a pencil holder we'll incur a cost. -
fontinau — 9 years ago(August 09, 2016 02:03 AM)
I tried to go chronologically with those I had, because before then my Verdi listening had been rather sporadic and I wanted to try to hear his evolution. I did listen to several multiple times though, mostly on DVD/blu-rays. Still think Otello is his masterpiece, with Falstaff and Don Carlo not far behind, and La Traviata the next step down. Still can't quite get into Ballo and Forza or most of the early stuff. Rigoletto's power seems to lessen the more I hear it; Il Trovatore is still superficially fun. Aida still strikes me as weird; like Verdi doing an impression of Parsifal-era Wagner in a way combined with a kind of Rennaissance-music stasis. I don't think it works as a whole, but it's haunting in a way most Verdi isn't.
Thank you! Strongly agree on Aida - it's like Verdi had these ideas for an otherworldly masterpiece and said "'Mu ha ha ha, I'll make the suckers dig for it through layers of grand opera clichés and bombast!" - hey, kind of like Götterdämmerung.
Early stuff is frustrating like, do you know Charles V's big aria from Ernani? I could maybe just forget the whole opera otherwise, but when the wistfulness suddenly turns into nobility at "e vincitor dei secoli" - chills.
Any opinion on the requiem? -
Eva_Yojimbo — 9 years ago(August 09, 2016 09:28 AM)
I do think Wagner was more naturally suited to that "otherworldly grand opera bombast" than Verdi, so Gotterdammerung feels a much more natural fit. Verdi's own "grand opera" masterpiece is Don Carlo, and the differences between its messy politics and humanism and Aida's rather chilling "otherness" is striking. It just occurred to me that maybe Wagner's Meistersinger is the mirror of Aida: Wagner trying to do a humorous and humanistic "grand opera" and being slightly awkward at it, despite its occasional successes. To make a literary comparison, Wagner is Milton and Verdi is Shakespeare: Aida is Shakespeare trying to write Paradise Lost, Meistersinger is Milton trying to write The Tempest.
I think I know the aria you're talking about from Ernani. I think most all the early stuff have moments in them while the operas don't gel as a whole, either from innate flaws in the dramaturgy or Verdi just not yet knowing how make the drama more than the sum of its parts.
It's been a long time since I heard The Requiem, though I've always enjoyed it. I guess once I tire of the operas I'll probably give it several listens and reform my opinions.
warriorspirit
: if the penis is used as a pencil holder we'll incur a cost. -
fontinau — 9 years ago(August 09, 2016 10:37 AM)
It just occurred to me that maybe Wagner's Meistersinger is the mirror of Aida: Wagner trying to do a humorous and humanistic "grand opera" and being slightly awkward at it, despite its occasional successes. To make a literary comparison, Wagner is Milton and Verdi is Shakespeare: Aida is Shakespeare trying to write Paradise Lost, Meistersinger is Milton trying to write The Tempest.
Superb.