Beethoven's Eroica voted greatest symphony of all time by conductors
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fontinau — 9 years ago(August 05, 2016 01:26 PM)
The Tchaikovsky 6th may be the most original symphony since the Fantastique.
No way. If ending a symphony slow and quiet - i.e. doing what early Haydn did sometimes - is really so original, Brahms did it first anyway (and HE did it in a way Haydn never did - gradually winding down from fast and loud). -
fontinau — 9 years ago(August 08, 2016 12:40 PM)
On the other hand, if we follow Richard Taruskin's argument that Tchaikovsky represents a different symphonic tradition than Brahms - Italian opera influenced, and descending from Mozart and Schubert, with self-contained melodies as important as motivic development - then maybe you can make a case for the Pathétique as revolutionary in that it represents the culmination of Tchaikovsky's efforts in that direction.
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Eva_Yojimbo — 9 years ago(August 06, 2016 10:15 AM)
- It's not original in the slightest (see fonti's response).
- It lacks anything of real musical value. It gets by because many have a profound emotional response to it, which completely escapes me. I've always found it utterly dull and prefer Tchaikovsky's previous two symphonies; though I'd also contend his 1st Piano Concerto is probably his greatest creation.
warriorspirit
: if the penis is used as a pencil holder we'll incur a cost.
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fontinau — 9 years ago(August 06, 2016 01:22 PM)
- It lacks anything of real musical value. It gets by because many have a profound emotional response to it, which completely escapes me.
This I don't agree with. I'll trade you all the musical value in, I don't know, let's say Bruckner, for THE theme - you know the one. And the arrival of the long-withheld forte rendition of the main theme of the third movement sets my hair on fire.
- It lacks anything of real musical value. It gets by because many have a profound emotional response to it, which completely escapes me.
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Eva_Yojimbo — 9 years ago(August 06, 2016 02:00 PM)
All I can say is that neither THE theme, nor the forte rendition in the third movement, do anything for me. I'm not the biggest Bruckner fan (though I'm warming to him more than I used to be), but I'd say I enjoy the scherzo of the 9th symphony more than anything in Tchaikovsky's 6th. It occurred to me the other day when discussing rhythm VS melody in music that it sounds vaguely like the Danse des Adolescentes in Rite of Spring.
On a side note, speaking of Bruckner, all his late Scherzos make me curious about his sense of what a joke is. Given their monumental, mechanized momentum he probably would've found a panzer assault a laugh riot.
warriorspirit
: if the penis is used as a pencil holder we'll incur a cost. -
fontinau — 9 years ago(August 06, 2016 02:34 PM)
On a side note, speaking of Bruckner, all his late Scherzos make me curious about his sense of what a joke is. Given their monumental, mechanized momentum he probably would've found a panzer assault a laugh riot.
Or a Valkyrie charge. Compare the scherzo in 8 with Wagner's ride of the. -
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fontinau — 9 years ago(August 08, 2016 12:42 PM)
Well here's an argument for THE theme: You once singled out the Pas de deux from Stravinsky's Apollo, and I said it sounds to me like it starts as "Wie die Blumen im Lenze erblüh'n" from Léhar's The Merry Widow and soon becomes Satie's "Je te veux" - but what I've noticed since then is that the passage that links the two together seems to be copied from the climax of drumroll THE theme by Tchaikovsky.
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Eva_Yojimbo — 9 years ago(August 08, 2016 01:53 PM)
Hmmm, interesting. Will have to listen to all three to see if I hear the connection. Still haven't gotten around to The Merry Widow, though (opera listening been dominated by Verdi recently).
warriorspirit
: if the penis is used as a pencil holder we'll incur a cost. -
Eva_Yojimbo — 9 years ago(August 08, 2016 03:21 PM)
Not really. I tried to go chronologically with those I had, because before then my Verdi listening had been rather sporadic and I wanted to try to hear his evolution. I did listen to several multiple times though, mostly on DVD/blu-rays. Still think Otello is his masterpiece, with Falstaff and Don Carlo not far behind, and La Traviata the next step down. Still can't quite get into Ballo and Forza or most of the early stuff. Rigoletto's power seems to lessen the more I hear it; Il Trovatore is still superficially fun. Aida still strikes me as weird; like Verdi doing an impression of Parsifal-era Wagner in a way combined with a kind of Rennaissance-music stasis. I don't think it works as a whole, but it's haunting in a way most Verdi isn't.
warriorspirit
: if the penis is used as a pencil holder we'll incur a cost. -
fontinau — 9 years ago(August 09, 2016 02:03 AM)
I tried to go chronologically with those I had, because before then my Verdi listening had been rather sporadic and I wanted to try to hear his evolution. I did listen to several multiple times though, mostly on DVD/blu-rays. Still think Otello is his masterpiece, with Falstaff and Don Carlo not far behind, and La Traviata the next step down. Still can't quite get into Ballo and Forza or most of the early stuff. Rigoletto's power seems to lessen the more I hear it; Il Trovatore is still superficially fun. Aida still strikes me as weird; like Verdi doing an impression of Parsifal-era Wagner in a way combined with a kind of Rennaissance-music stasis. I don't think it works as a whole, but it's haunting in a way most Verdi isn't.
Thank you! Strongly agree on Aida - it's like Verdi had these ideas for an otherworldly masterpiece and said "'Mu ha ha ha, I'll make the suckers dig for it through layers of grand opera clichés and bombast!" - hey, kind of like Götterdämmerung.
Early stuff is frustrating like, do you know Charles V's big aria from Ernani? I could maybe just forget the whole opera otherwise, but when the wistfulness suddenly turns into nobility at "e vincitor dei secoli" - chills.
Any opinion on the requiem? -
Eva_Yojimbo — 9 years ago(August 09, 2016 09:28 AM)
I do think Wagner was more naturally suited to that "otherworldly grand opera bombast" than Verdi, so Gotterdammerung feels a much more natural fit. Verdi's own "grand opera" masterpiece is Don Carlo, and the differences between its messy politics and humanism and Aida's rather chilling "otherness" is striking. It just occurred to me that maybe Wagner's Meistersinger is the mirror of Aida: Wagner trying to do a humorous and humanistic "grand opera" and being slightly awkward at it, despite its occasional successes. To make a literary comparison, Wagner is Milton and Verdi is Shakespeare: Aida is Shakespeare trying to write Paradise Lost, Meistersinger is Milton trying to write The Tempest.
I think I know the aria you're talking about from Ernani. I think most all the early stuff have moments in them while the operas don't gel as a whole, either from innate flaws in the dramaturgy or Verdi just not yet knowing how make the drama more than the sum of its parts.
It's been a long time since I heard The Requiem, though I've always enjoyed it. I guess once I tire of the operas I'll probably give it several listens and reform my opinions.
warriorspirit
: if the penis is used as a pencil holder we'll incur a cost. -
fontinau — 9 years ago(August 09, 2016 10:37 AM)
It just occurred to me that maybe Wagner's Meistersinger is the mirror of Aida: Wagner trying to do a humorous and humanistic "grand opera" and being slightly awkward at it, despite its occasional successes. To make a literary comparison, Wagner is Milton and Verdi is Shakespeare: Aida is Shakespeare trying to write Paradise Lost, Meistersinger is Milton trying to write The Tempest.
Superb. -
Tony-358 — 9 years ago(August 10, 2016 07:46 AM)
Aida predates Parsifal by about ten years.
When he composed Aida, the only mid to late period Wagner operas that had been performed were Tristan and Meistersinger but Verdi certainly didn't know the music at that point.
Aida is actually a throwback to Meyerbeer style Grand Opera. The first two acts certainly are.
Listen to the Sherrill Milnes/Joan Sutherland Rigoletto. Its power never diminishes. -
Eva_Yojimbo — 9 years ago(August 10, 2016 10:45 AM)
Aida predates Parsifal by about ten years.
I know that. Didn't mean to imply Verdi was directly influenced by Parsifal, merely that it reminded me of it. Otello and Falstaff may have had some of Wagner's general influence, though.
Listen to the Sherrill Milnes/Joan Sutherland Rigoletto. Its power never diminishes.
I have. It's a great recording, but I was focusing on DVDs/Blu-rays. It could very well be that I just didn't watch any performances that were remotely at that same level.
warriorspirit
: if the penis is used as a pencil holder we'll incur a cost.
