Does This One Have A Gay Angle????
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Skye_Reynolds — 13 years ago(February 28, 2013 03:12 PM)
Not only does he hold his dying friend in his arms like he's cradling a lover, but he strokes his hair, kisses him on the cheek, and holds his mother inches away from his friend's throughout much of the talking. Even after mentioning the women they both love, one of them states that their friendship with one another was more important.
To be honest, I was surprised when nothing was mentioned about it in the trivia section. I expected to read that the director himself was a homosexual and had inserted that scene. In any event, it was a very touching scene. Straight, gay, bi, male or female, it was a great parting scene for two individuals very close to one another. I thought it had a lot riding on it. -
rsbrandt — 13 years ago(March 04, 2013 02:20 PM)
I don't think so. There's a reflection of this scene in the ending of another William Wellman's films, "The Story of G.I. Joe," where a soldier's parting caress of a fallen comrade's face is almost shockingly intimate, but I don't think Wellman intends us to read any suppressed homosexuality in it. I think he's onto something much more here: that men who have been through the hell of war together have formed bonds stronger than anything they'll encounter back in civilian life. (In the latter scene, there's something almost maternal about the way the soldier buttons and straightens his dead comrade's collar. Same thing.)
Of course, we're free to read any homosexual subtext we like into stories of male bonding, intentional or otherwise. -
preppy-3 — 12 years ago(May 07, 2013 08:11 AM)
Nothere's no gay angle here BUT I can see why people think there is. The way those guys are going on in the end seems laughable and downright homoerotic nowadays. However (back then) it was perfectly OK for guys to cry, kiss and hold each other without people thinking they were lovers. Still people think it's a gay love story. Hell they show the clip at the end where he's dying in the excellent docu "The Celluloid Closet" which was about gays in movies!
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Skye_Reynolds — 12 years ago(May 12, 2013 07:06 PM)
I have mixed feelings on the homosexual/bisexual subplot of Ben Hur. On one hand, I'm fine with Ben Hur being bisexual and Messala being homosexual. I even think that it gives a little more depth to Messala's character and makes him a little more interesting. However, I don't like Gore Vidal making those kinds of amendments to someone else's characters and I feel that the ex-lover subplot
completely
undermines the intended point that it was Rome which corrupted Messala. The subplot simply turns him into a jilted ex-lover rather than a representative of a corrupt and oppressive regime.
It's an interesting idea, but I prefer to think of it as non-canon. It's a great film either way though. I was privileged enough to be able to see a theater showing of it earlier this year.
Rest in Peace, Ray Harryhausen
(June 29, 1920 May 7, 2013) -
preppy-3 — 12 years ago(May 13, 2013 04:56 AM)
According to Vidal there was no real reason for Messala and Ben-Hur to hate each other so that's why he made them ex-lovers. I think that it was pretty clear that Rome corrupted Messalabut not enough to make him suddenly hate his best friend.
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Skye_Reynolds — 12 years ago(May 13, 2013 02:44 PM)
I disagree with him. When Judah Ben-Hur refused to give up the names of the conspirators, that severed things between them. Judah was loyal to his people, his nation, and Messala was obsessed with meeting the needs of Rome. To him, that was treason and everyone who remained silent was in on it. I find that more believable than Messala developing an intense hatred for Ben-Hur and his entire family over being rejected.
Honestly, I think that Vidal just wanted to insert a romantic history between the two of them into the story. There weren't any gay or bisexual characters in Hollywood, so he wanted to include a couple of characters. You had characters like Eddie Mars from The Big Sleep, Joel Cairo from The Maltese Falcon, or Dr. Pretorius from Bride of Frankenstein, but seldom if ever anything like this.
Rest in Peace, Ray Harryhausen
(June 29, 1920 May 7, 2013) -
preppy-3 — 12 years ago(May 13, 2013 03:50 PM)
Either way it DID work. A lot of people didn't pick up on the gay relationship anyways. Only Vidal, director William Wyler and Stephen Boyd knew about it. Boyd was fascinated about that angle and played it up. Heston was totally oblivious and I think it's hilarious to see those two guys playing it for completely different reasons:) I think you're right thoughVidal probably wanted to sneak it in. He knew gay guys would get it and probably love it:)
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Skye_Reynolds — 12 years ago(May 14, 2013 03:25 PM)
I think the two spears and the way that they interlocked arms while drinking was very telling. When I read the trivia after seeing the film for the first time, I was not at all surprised. There's also that kinda awkward moment where Boyd is smiling dreamily and Heston looks to be a bit uncomfortable. He has no idea what's going on and it makes his character seem as if he trying to ignore or downplay their history.
Rest in Peace, Ray Harryhausen
(June 29, 1920 May 7, 2013) -
preppy-3 — 12 years ago(May 14, 2013 04:34 PM)
Oh Boyd was acting it to pieces and it worked! I saw it back in the 1990s at a revival cinema. I didn't know about the gay subtext but it was SO obvious:) Some people in the audience were laughing out loud (in a nice way) and others were sort of looking around puzzled why people were laughing:) Heston to his dying day said there was NO gay subtext at all. Butthere is.
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preppy-3 — 12 years ago(May 17, 2013 11:40 AM)
I'd be more willing to believe Vidal over Heston. Let's face itHeston was homophobic. He probably hated Vidal just cause he was gay. We'll never know for sure though. However if Vidal was fired for trying to add it why was Boyd obviously playing it as if he were in love with Heston? The looks he's giving him are pretty obvious.
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preppy-3 — 12 years ago(May 17, 2013 05:48 PM)
From what I heard Heston was FURIOUS when he heard that but the studio told him to shut up and play nice:) He got all riled up again when "The Celluloid Closet" came out calling Vidal a liar and every name in the book. U know the censors MIGHT have caught the gay subtextbut Messala died so that made it OK:) I remember wheb "The Children's Hour" came out a few years later. It's made VERY clear that Shirley MacLaine's character is a lesbianbut she commits suicide so that makes it OK:)
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Skye_Reynolds — 12 years ago(May 20, 2013 12:47 PM)
That's true. If it was punished, "cured,"or a character attribute of someone we're not supposed to like, it was seemingly okay with Hollywood's censors at the time. Messala probably represented the
dangers
of homosexuality. It's laughable now, but it is kinda sad.
In regards to The Children's Hour,
the teachers won their case in real life and neither took her own life.
If the film were remade today, it would probably make Audrey Hepburn's character bisexual and the two would live happily ever after together.
Honestly, I had no idea that I knew so much about Hollywood's depiction of homosexuality in the early to mid-20th century. I have seen a few films out of curiosity - such as Victim or The Children's Hour - but it's not like it's something I've actively focused on. I just watch a lot of old movies.
I do still need to watch and/or read The Celluloid Closet though. I bet that's a very interesting one. -
preppy-3 — 12 years ago(May 20, 2013 01:26 PM)
I didn't know "The Children's Hour" was based on a real life incident. I do know when they first filmed it (under the title "These Three") it was a more conventional love trianglebut that was in the 1930s. No way would they do lesbian stuff back thenit wasn't allowed!
I know a lot about it because I'm gay and I love atching movies. This may sound silly but when you're gay or lesbian you "see" stuff other str8 people might not get. I remermber when I was 8 and watching "Dracula's Daughter". There's a STRONG lesbian subtext in one scene. I got it right away but my buddies (all str8 guys) didn't catch it at all. BTW "Victim" is a great film. However when it played on TV ALL the references to homosexuality were cut out making the film incomprehensible! Sad. Also it's interesting that Dirk Bogarde took the role. He was gay but kept it a secret.
BTW SEE "The Celluloid Closet". The book is very dry and academic and there's more than a few incorrect takes on different movies. -
Skye_Reynolds — 12 years ago(May 22, 2013 12:08 AM)
If I'm not mistaken, and I could be, The Children's Hour was loosely based off of a case in Ireland which took place in the early 1900s. The two teachers who were accused sued for libel and won, but the damage to their reputations had already been done. I've seen These Three, and if memory serves I thought it was the better directed of the two films, but I found The Children's Hour to be far more memorable.
As for Dracula's Daughter, the original screenplay was more open about her sexuality. It definitely had traces of sadomasochistic fantasies to it as well. If I remember correctly, she was supposed to torture both male and female victims - and hypnotize them into liking it. There was also going to be a wall adorned with chains and whips alluding to things not shown in the film. (The censors rejected it.)
Thanks for the heads up on which version of The Celluloid Closet to go with. This has been a very pleasant discussion so far. -
preppy-3 — 12 years ago(May 22, 2013 05:05 AM)
I agree that "These Three" was the better directed version but "Children's" impact was stronger. Also I know "Children's" was HEAVILY edited before it came out. The entire scene when they went on trial was cut out entirely! Shirley MacLaine mentions it in her autobiography. There's also a pic of the trial scene in "The Celluloid Closet" book.
I didn't know that about the original screenplay of "Dracula's Daughter". THAT would have been interesting if it were allowed:) As it is I'm surprised they got by with that one scene. Maybe because it was made clear that she was in love with a guy later on. AND she is killed at the end so
I heard in the original script of Hammer's vampire film "Brides of Dracula" the main vampire (Baron Meinster NOT Dracula despite the title) was going to be bisexualbut the censors rejected it. I think it was because the actor playing the role was openly gay.