Martha!
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CichlidAsh — 9 years ago(January 07, 2017 09:38 PM)
Complete desperation and grasping at straws. Trying to kill Superman (because of his philosophy that no one man should have that much power and because he believes power corrupts)
You can not justify Batman trying to kill someone because it is his philosophy is no excuse. Next you will be siding with terrorists well that would be if you were not so deluded already that you believe that your own government wasn't carrying out the attacks.
Complete desperation and grasping at straws
Nope all valid points and you know it else you would have made an attempt to counter them.
To make a great film you need three things - the script, the script and the script -Alfred Hitchcock -
Ramboman24 — 9 years ago(January 08, 2017 01:38 AM)
I only bothered addressing the ones that weren't complete straw man arguments but I'll do the rest now.
- Data theft from someone he does not know at this point is a bad guy as you like to call them.
Seriously? Big deal. Batman obtains information illegally in his sleuthing all the time. - Brand and torture people and no it does not give you permission to do such thing because your rich and have a rubber bat fetish no matter how dad these people might be.
When did I ever say Batman had permission to brand and torture criminals? Technically Batman doesn't have proper permission to work outside the law at all lol dumbass. Batman working outside the law is something Batman fans are used to - Try and kill Superman
Again, because of his philosophy and worry for the well being of humanity - Work for Amanda Waller
He's building up the JL - Do the bidding of Lex
He had been manipulated - Punch a girl in the face
I've seen countless male action heroes punch women - Use a child as a human shield
That was a poorly shot scene from a bad movie. Regardless, he didn't grab her and use her as a human shield she ran up in front of Deadshot and acted as a human shield herself
. - Drag helpless (bad guys) people in a car and murder them
Exactly, bad guys
No I'm not saying it's "legal" I'm just saying I don't care doesn't mean he isn't a hero that cares about protecting innocents - Have employees so scared of him that they dare not leave a building when a city is under attack without his permission.
The last one is just retarded
I don't see how any of those straw man arguments prove Batman isn't a hero that fights crime
The Pact
- Data theft from someone he does not know at this point is a bad guy as you like to call them.
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CichlidAsh — 9 years ago(January 08, 2017 04:16 AM)
Again just pointing out the hypocrisy. It's like the whole Punisher thing. I saw you say he's your favorite Marvel character and then I see you bashing Batman trying to make him out to be some sort of sadistic serial killer with that has no heroic qualities.- by Ramboman24
Jan 6 2017
Re: Curious to see you're top five all time superheroes
Batman (prior DCEU version)
2. Bucky (never read anything about him in comics)
3. Hulk (A hero I grew up watching on TV and I have always loved the inner conflict)
4. Crow (I just love that movie)
5. Rorschach (This one is actually from the only comic I have ever rated, great character)
by
CichlidAsh
Fri Dec 30 2016
Yes as you can see me going on listing my favourite character Punisher.
I am not going to deny liking Punisher though so if you want to try and make something out of that please try too.
Now these:- Data theft from someone he does not know at this point is a bad guy as you like to call them
- Brand and torture people and no it does not give you permission to do such thing because your rich and have a rubber bat fetish no matter how dad these people might be.
- Try and kill Superman
- Work for Amanda Waller
- Do the bidding of Lex
- Punch a girl in the face
- Use a child as a human shield
- Drag helpless (bad guys) people in a car and murder them
- Have employees so scared of him that they dare not leave a building when a city is under attack without his permission.
oh the so called heroic side we have seen so far: - Him save a little girl in metropolis
- Save Martha!
Are in response to this statement that you said
I see you bashing Batman trying to make him out to be some sort of sadistic serial killer with that has no heroic qualities
So your counter as to why I should find him not to be a sadistic killer is
Seriously? Big deal. Batman obtains information illegally in his sleuthing all the time.
So that means its heroic because he steals all information all the time?
2.
When did I ever say Batman had permission to brand and torture criminals? Technically Batman doesn't have proper permission to work outside the law at all lol dumbass. Batman working outside the law is something Batman fans are used to
This is your defence of why he is not a sadist because the fans are used to it and he is working outside the law? How does that change him from being a fVVking sadist?
3.
Again, because of his philosophy and worry for the well being of humanity
How does brutally attacking someone with the intention of murdering them somehow make you heroic especially when that person is actually a good person who is seen throughout the movie saving people?
5.
He had been manipulated
Lex Manipulating him somehow means he is either heroic or not a murderer or sadist? Please explain how Lex made Batman brand people?
6.
Punch a girl in the face I've seen countless male action heroes punch women
I guess what your saying then is that means that it is not an example of brutality and is perfectly expectable because you can use the favoured DC Zealot excuse of it's happened in other films instead of trying to actually present a defence of it in its own right? Still even if it has happened in other films it does not mean that it is not a legitimate example of Batman brutality. At least we can say he is not sexist though right?
7.
Use a child as a human shield That was a poorly shot scene from a bad movie. Regardless, he didn't grab her and use her as a human shield she ran up in front of Deadshot and acted as a human shield herself
I am not excepting a poorly shot scene as an excuse Rambo it is what it is the DCEU decided to include it in the film so it is cannon as is seen. So explain to me how it is heroic to even approach a known killer when he is with a child endangering her in the first place and it don't matter if it was his own child so don't try and pull that one. When the child stepped in the way causing herself to become a human shield what did Batman do to prevent her from continuing to be so? Nothing so while he might not have originally placed her there as a human shield he did use her as one. That is not heroic in my book but please explain to me why you find it is.
8.
Drag helpless (bad guys) people in a car and murder them Exactly, bad guys No I'm not saying it's "legal" I'm just saying I don't care doesn't mean he isn't a hero that cares about protecting innocents
Again please explain this inline with your original comment. How is this not murder? Legal has nothing to do with you wanted me to answer why I was
bashing Batman trying to make him out to be some sort of sadistic serial killer
. This is because this is murder like it or not be it bad guys or not its still murder.
To make a great film you need three things - the script, the script and the script -Alfred Hitchcock -
Ramboman24 — 9 years ago(January 08, 2017 09:51 AM)
So that means its heroic because he steals all information all the time?
It's well known that Batman breaks into homes, steals information and does all of his detective work outside of the law. If you want to make the argument that Batman isn't a hero because he breaks the law, then start with ALL the laws he breaks. You're going up against 70 some odd years of history of people knowing him as the hero. In no way am I saying that him working outside of the law is what specifically makes him a hero. He's a hero that works outside of the law, where you stand on how you feel about that affecting how heroic he is.. is your choice.
This is your defence of why he is not a sadist because the fans are used to it and he is working outside the law? How does that change him from being a fVVking sadist?
I look at it as a tough on crime approach. He's always been violent towards criminals. Batman has never worked within the confines of the law so I don't care about how he gets the job done I just care that he does. He attacks bad people not good people. So he's a hero.
How does brutally attacking someone with the intention of murdering them somehow make you heroic especially when that person is actually a good person who is seen throughout the movie saving people?
It's arguable that it's not heroic but when you see what Batman's reasoning for the whole thing is it makes more sense. He's viewing Superman as a dangerous alien not as a human and he's worried that if he ever turned bad he could enslave humanity in minutes.
The level of power that Superman has worries him. His reasoning for wanting to kill Superman is related to his concerns for protecting humanity. It's not black and white. It's a situation where sometimes a hero is put ina situation where they have to do something questionable in order to do what they feel will protect humanity in the long run.
Ie when TOny Stark creates Ultron.
I am not excepting a poorly shot scene as an excuse Rambo it is what it is the DCEU decided to include it in the film so it is cannon as is seen. So explain to me how it is heroic to even approach a known killer when he is with a child endangering her in the first place and it don't matter if it was his own child so don't try and pull that one. When the child stepped in the way causing herself to become a human shield what did Batman do to prevent her from continuing to be so? Nothing so while he might not have originally placed her there as a human shield he did use her as one. That is not heroic in my book but please explain to me why you find it is.
As I said, it's a poorly shot scene from a movie I hate. So you can have that one. I look at it as something the director didn't even think a bout when shooting the scene. He was so hell bent on playing up the importance of Deadshot's daughter the the power she had to subdue his inner criminal that they didn't even realize they were making Batman look like an idiot.
Sure, it's cannon, doesn't mean I can't ignore it which is what I do to horrible movies. And regardless, you can tell that it wasn't their intention to shoot a scene to show that Batman likes to put little girls lives in danger.
It's just something the director didn't think of because he's a moron. A sloppy, half assed, cameo that looks like it was shot in one take. You can tell they thought it would be a clever way to make Deadshot more relatable by having him unable to kill in front of his daughter. Super cheesy.
Again please explain this inline with your original comment. How is this not murder? Legal has nothing to do with you wanted me to answer why I was
The original arugment was that batman wasn't a hero. I don't see Batman punishing criminals or bad guys as something that undoes all of his heroic qualities and the good things he does.
He protects the right people, he's an as-hole to the right people. He's a hero.
This is because this is murder like it or not be it bad guys or not its still murder.
I don't consider the Punisher or Batman to be sadistic serial killers. I view them as vigilantes. There's always an underlying theme that they're taking out bad people which you can choose to agree or disagree with.
Sure, they're breaking the law. Whether or not that bothers you is up to you as an individual and how much you respect the law. I follow most laws, but that doesn't mean that my philosophy towards law means that I disagree with every single individual that has ever broken the law.
As far as Vigilantes are concerned, I view them as heroes. Not as serial killers despite what the law would technically label them as.
And no I don't view ISIS as heroic. They kill for religion which I don't believe in.
The Pact -
CichlidAsh — 9 years ago(January 08, 2017 03:48 PM)
He protects the right people, he's an as-hole to the right people. He's a hero.
As I said Rambo if we use only what we know about Batman from the DCEU and had no prior knowledge of him then he does not appear to really be a hero in the DCEU but of course we all use what we know about him from past films/comic and the likes to know he is a hero, despite using extreme methods kind of like a billionaire version of the Punisher. However if you do try and list what heroic things he has done in the DCEU films it does not really amount to that much, his main thing of course is try and kill another hero and using this philosophy as an excuse for making it right is very dangerous waters as I said terrorist believe in what they are doing but that does not make them right or good. I am sure that by the same measure Lex motivations you should also believe made for him actually being a good guy because he believed in what he was doing is also for the greater good.
It you do scroll up though you can see that the list was made in direct response of why do I see him as a violent murder with no heroic qualities. So I gave my answers perhaps you can give the reasons why you think Batman is not a violent murder and is so heroic (using only what is shown in the DCEU films).
To make a great film you need three things - the script, the script and the script -Alfred Hitchcock -
Ramboman24 — 9 years ago(January 08, 2017 03:54 PM)
Oh sure, because saving Superman's mother and helping to destroy Doomsday isn't heroic. Neither is creating a JL tard.
I said terrorist believe in what they are doing but that does not make them right or good. I am sure that by the same measure Lex motivations you should also believe made for him actually being a good guy because he believed in what he was doing is also for the greater good.
Terrorists kill for religion which is stupid because it's a radicalized version of their religion anyways. It's an even bigger pile of BS than the original religion it derives from.
Batman's philosophy about one man having too much power makes sense. And Batman doesn't know Superman the way we do. It's like if an alien came to our earth with incredible powers, even if he said he was good, I'd be skeptical of trusting someone more powerful than myself and would probably fear that alien.
Never said it's 100% right what Batman is doing, it's definitely a morally grey area but it makes sense.
And that sir, Is why I like DC movies. They make you think
And btw in the end, Batman doesn't even kill Superman.
Dumbass.
The Pact -
CichlidAsh — 9 years ago(January 08, 2017 04:29 PM)
Oh sure, because saving Superman's mother and helping to destroy Doomsday isn't heroic. Neither is creating a JL tard.
Of course if Batman was not so compliant in the first place with Lex plans or was not trying to kill Superman because reasons Lex would not have kidnapped Martha in the first place so I don't see that as being so heroic as you do because its largely Batman fault that Martha was kidnapped in the first place.
Batman just $hat his pants when Doomsday turned up his contribution to the fight was minimal out of the three heroes. Again Doomsday creation is partly Batmans fault anyway but not as much as Superman really given that instead of stopping Doomsday creation he decides to strike up a conversation with Lex instead.
Batman's philosophy about one man having too much power makes sense
Yes it does, what does not make sense if having the same mother name changing that philosophy.
. Neither is creating a JL
Oh do tell me when did he create the Justice League? You seem to have watched a very different film to us all again.
tard.
You triggered again Rambo?
To make a great film you need three things - the script, the script and the script -Alfred Hitchcock -
Ramboman24 — 9 years ago(January 08, 2017 04:50 PM)
Of course if Batman was not so compliant in the first place with Lex plans or was not trying to kill Superman because reasons Lex would not have kidnapped Martha in the first place so I don't see that as being so heroic as you do because its largely Batman fault that Martha was kidnapped in the first place.
omg more straw man. That's an indirect consequence of Batman's actions but it was never his intention so that doesn't make him evil. In the comics, Robin gets killed because Batman takes a young kid under his wing as a crime fighter.
God damn you're whiney.
Batman just $hat his pants when Doomsday turned up his contribution to the fight was minimal out of the three heroes. Again Doomsday creation is partly Batmans fault anyway but not as much as Superman really given that instead of stopping Doomsday creation he decides to strike up a conversation with Lex instead.
Everything is the heroes fault. Didn't see you complaining about Tony Stark ACTUALLY creating Ultron himself lol. Marveltard.
Batman doesn't confront Doomsday face to face because he isn't retarded. He still stuck around within a close enough radius that he "Could've" been killed but it was far less likely. It's called being brave without being retarded..
You triggered again Rambo?
Nope that's just what I call moron's that never give up on continuous straw man arguments.
The Pact -
CichlidAsh — 9 years ago(January 08, 2017 05:02 PM)
Everything is the heroes fault.Everything is the heroes fault. Didn't see you complaining about Tony Stark ACTUALLY creating Ultron himself lol. Marveltard.
While not blaming the heroes themselves you can not deny that they were a contributing factor to all this situations Superman could have prevented Doomsday birth cycle from completing but instead chose to strike up a conversation with Lex or are you going to deny this?
Everything is the heroes fault. Didn't see you complaining about Tony Stark ACTUALLY creating Ultron himself lol. Marveltard.
Are you really this stupid well we all know the answer to this question. However please explain to everyone why I would be complaining about Tony Stark creating Ultron on the BvS board I am really interested in your logic behind that thinking. Also again please show me one time I have ever defended a bad Marvel movie just once, you can not because I am not a huge Marvel fan you daft twat the clue to what franchise I would align myself to is in my bio.
To make a great film you need three things - the script, the script and the script -Alfred Hitchcock -
Ramboman24 — 9 years ago(January 08, 2017 05:07 PM)
While not blaming the heroes themselves you can not deny that they were a contributing factor to all this situations Superman could have prevented Doomsday birth cycle from completing but instead chose to strike up a conversation with Lex or are you going to deny this?
Yes, yes.. Spider-man could've prevented Gwen Stacey's death I get what you're saying but that's just superhero comics for you.
Are you really this stupid well we all know the answer to this question. However please explain to everyone why I would be complaining about Tony Stark creating Ultron on the BvS board I am really interested in your logic behind that thinking. Also again please show me one time I have ever defended a bad Marvel movie just once, you can not because I am not a huge Marvel fan you daft twat the clue to what franchise I would align myself to is in my bio.
Well all you ever do is rag on DC movies and then sing nothing but praise when you talk about MArvel and I have seen you talk about Marvel multiple times on this board so don't pretend it's not something you do.
As I said before, you can deny being a Marveltard all you want. I know what you are and that's all that matters
The Pact -
CichlidAsh — 9 years ago(January 08, 2017 11:33 PM)
Yes, yes.. Spider-man could've prevented Gwen Stacey's death I get what you're saying but that's just superhero comics for you.
Spider-Man was in this film? Now your really can not talk about anything without referring to Marvel can you? You seem totally obsessed with Marvel. I would hate to break it to you but this is a CBM forum not a comic book one and while the two are related there is a huge difference between the two and the audiences for each. I enjoy CBM yet I have very little interest in comics and while I know that CBM are inspired by comics I do believe most of the stories and interpretations are different. I can not really comment on comic books though as I don't read them and have not since The Watchmen first came out. If you want to talk about comics I really and not the person to be talking about but if you want to push me on which franchise made the best comics then I would tell you that The Watchmen is the only comic I would ever have rated and as a kid I would most likely have chose a Beano over any superhero one although I did read Thing 2 in 1 for a short time, but that's it for my comic book knowledge.
Well all you ever do is rag on DC movies and then sing nothing but praise when you talk about MArvel and I have seen you talk about Marvel multiple times on this board so don't pretend it's not something you do.
This is a lie I love Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, like Superman and love Superman II, so when I rag on a DC movie it is normally one of the DCEU movies so what I am actually doing is ragging on a bad movie not DC. Most of the time when I speak about Marvel it is usually in response to some DCEU trying to tout some complete nonsense about the DCEU box office beating the MCU or some such. Still I like Marvel movies simply because I like good movies and I found say Doctor Strange to be clearly a much more enjoyable movie than say Suicide Squad. What you need to do Rambo is learn the difference between someone who is genuinely invested in a franchise like you are with DC and someone who just likes good CBM and does not actually care which franchise they come from. Still please give just one example just one where I defend a bad marvel movie. Hell if you want start a topic on it and I will tell you which Marvel movies I like and dislike if you want.
Well all you ever do is rag on DC movies and then sing nothing but praise when you talk about MArvel and I have seen you talk about Marvel multiple times on this board so don't pretend it's not something you do.
To make a great film you need three things - the script, the script and the script -Alfred Hitchcock -
Ramboman24 — 9 years ago(January 09, 2017 03:20 AM)
This is a lie I love Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, like Superman and love Superman II, so when I rag on a DC movie it is normally one of the DCEU movies so what I am actually doing is ragging on a bad movie not DC. Most of the time when I speak about Marvel it is usually in response to some DCEU trying to tout some complete nonsense about the DCEU box office beating the MCU or some such. Still I like Marvel movies simply because I like good movies and I found say Doctor Strange to be clearly a much more enjoyable movie than say Suicide Squad. What you need to do Rambo is learn the difference between someone who is genuinely invested in a franchise like you are with DC and someone who just likes good CBM and does not actually care which franchise they come from. Still please give just one example just one where I defend a bad marvel movie. Hell if you want start a topic on it and I will tell you which Marvel movies I like and dislike if you want.
Haha thing is, I'm not the type of fan of the DCEU you think I am. I pretty much told you I'm ignoring Suicide Squad's existence.
Same thing if I was an MCU fan. I'd definitely trim out the fat of all the bad movies in the MCU. Some of them definitely aren't necessary.
The Pact -
Ramboman24 — 9 years ago(January 08, 2017 04:53 PM)
Yes it does, what does not make sense if having the same mother name changing that philosophy.
And now were back to the "Martha" thing. I've already been over the fact that this moment helped Batman realize how cynical he was being. Following through with his philosophy one minute doesn't mean that he can't have something happen that changes his mind about trusting Superman another.
It was him going from cynical and apprehensive to optimistic and trusting.
Characters are allowed to change their minds. That's what makes people human
Oh do tell me when did he create the Justice League? You seem to have watched a very different film to us all again.
He began to plant the seeds of creating a JL at the end of the film it's hinted and it's now confirmed that he is indeed the one that will be responsible for creating the JL.
The Pact -
Ramboman24 — 9 years ago(January 08, 2017 04:01 PM)
I am sure that by the same measure Lex motivations you should also believe made for him actually being a good guy because he believed in what he was doing is also for the greater good.
And no, not at all.
Abducting an innocent woman to manipulate someone is just flat out wrong. Once you get to know Lex, you can see he's a twisted man doing what he does because he's a psychopath.
The whole philosophy thing only works when that's the ONLY reason you want to kill Superman and you plan to do it In an honorable way. Sure, Lex may have had a point about people fearing Superman, but the way he went about taking out Superman showed his ugly side. Also didn't agree with the fact that he framed Superman.
So I gave my answers perhaps you can give the reasons why you think Batman is not a violent murder and is so heroic (using only what is shown in the DCEU films).
The difference is that I was able to counter your straw man arguments and point out that Batman is pretty much a vigilante who only takes out bad guys. Just because he kills bad guys doesn't take away from the heroic things he does. If he was a killer that got pleasure out of killing innocent people then he'd be evil. But he doesn't
. That's why your arguments don't hold up.
Answer this how will you counter MY points that he IS heroic?- When he shows great concern for his employees at the start of his movie, personally speeds over to ground zero to surveil the area and runs into the rubble while everyone else is cowering away to see if he can help. Ends up saving a little girl
Can't counter that one - Continues to show how much he cared about his employees that died throughout the rest of the film.
- Decides not to kill Superman once he gets a strong enough sense to trust his instincts that Superman is indeed GOOD. If he's as evil as you say, he should've just killed Superman for the hell of it
- Goes out of his way to rescue Martha Kent (AN INNOCENT WOMAN) Go ahead and debunk that one. If he's as sadistic as you seem to think he is, he should have raped and killed her when he got the chance
That is, after branding her first. - Sticks around the battle zone of an insanely overpowered Doomsday that could squash him in seconds and helps out whichever way he could when he could've just cowered away. Why does he care about taking out Doomsday hmm must be because he's heroic and Doomsday poses a threat to the world. Counter that one
- Decides to create a JL with Wonder Woman to PROTECT HUMANITY. Or are you going to say that he's going to form the JL so he can just kill and enslave everyone?
As you can see, my arguments aren't straw man because they can't be refuted. Yours can, because you're putting a spin on things that happen in the film to try and twist a character into something they aren't.
The Pact
- When he shows great concern for his employees at the start of his movie, personally speeds over to ground zero to surveil the area and runs into the rubble while everyone else is cowering away to see if he can help. Ends up saving a little girl
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WeWonTheWar — 9 years ago(January 06, 2017 03:47 AM)
What is actually laughable is the fact that the DC Zealots think that people don't get what Snyder was aiming for with the Martha scene but just reject it because they know that the result of "Martha" was stupid and the effect was totally unrealistic. WE GET WHAT THE SCENE WAS MEANT TO MEAN it just does not work and so becomes one of the most funny scenes in cinema ever because of that.
^^^ This!
DC fanturds refuse to accept how beep dumb that scene looks is and continue trying to rationalize it like that's everyone's main problem.
Newsflash- It's horribly written and was the No.1 comedy moment in cinema for 2016!
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Ramboman24 — 9 years ago(January 06, 2017 03:49 AM)
Oh hey look one Marvel zealot agreeing with another Marvel zealot.
Who'dve thought?
and continue trying to rationalize it like that's everyone's main problem with it.
I'm not the one creating threads asking for people to explain the scene
Make up your OWN mind. Don't be a follower.
I didn't quite nail it - Christian Bale -