Beethoven's Eroica voted greatest symphony of all time by conductors
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Archived from the IMDb Discussion Forums — Classical Music
Carl-LaFong — 9 years ago(August 04, 2016 09:30 AM)
German and Austrian composers occupy eight of top 10 places in survey of leading conductors by BBC Music magazine.
Beethovens thrilling, electrifying Eroica, a piece of music originally dedicated to Napoleon and celebrating the revolutionary spirit sweeping Europe, has been named the greatest symphony of all time by the worlds greatest conductors.
BBC Music Magazine surveyed 151 conductors working across the world to come up with a top 20 great symphonies.
The Eroica, Beethovens Third Symphony, came in at No 1, followed by his Ninth, the Choral, in second place. Mozarts last symphony, No 41, the Jupiter, was in third place while Mahler occupied the next two places with his Ninth and Second symphonies respectively.
Surprisingly, Beethovens Fifth, with its instantly recognisable duh-duh-duh-duuuh opening, missed out on a top 10 spot, coming in 11th place.
Oliver Condy, editor of the magazine, admitted it was no great surprise Beethoven dominated the list. It has been over 200 years since Beethovens symphony number three was written and the vote suggests that it has not been improved on in those years, which is remarkable really and is testament to his absolute genius.
Conductors love conducting it. They love it because there is just so much to it, there is so much happening that opening is a real punch in the face.
The British conductor Jonathan Nott, music director of the Tokyo Symphony Orchestra, told the magazine the Eroica was boundary-breaking. This symphony is not about the glory of God, its about humans our struggles, challenges and victories.
Later, composers became preoccupied with lifes depressions and bitterness, but I never get that in Beethoven. You come away having experienced the power and joy of being alive.
The Eroica, written in 1803, was originally destined to be called the Bonaparte, a celebration of Napoleon and all he stood for. Beethoven changed his mind when he heard that Napoleon had declared himself emperor, denouncing him as a tyrant and scrubbing out his name so hard there is a hole in the manuscript.
The Third heralded a new era for the symphony, said Han-Na Chang, chief conductor of the Trondheim Symphony. He finds his voice and we see who he is.
The way he works out all the motifs, melodies and themes in such detail, while at the same time maintaining a completely organic development of the emotional message, seems to me unbeatable.
Condy said he would have predicted that the Ninth, which contains the European Union anthem, Ode to Joy, would have been at No 1. There is this real joyful sense of brotherhood and unity, which is interesting of course in these Brexit times.
Mahler is represented three times with his Second, Third and Ninth Symphonies; the Ninth has a beautifully slow final movement.
In third place is Mozarts last symphony, No 41, while his arguably more popular 40th is at No 15.
Im not sure why the conductors dont find it as alluring, said Condy. But dont forget we are talking about people who know the symphonies inside out, they really get inside the works, the structure, the textures and orchestrations.
The top 10 is completed by Brahmss Fourth Symphony (6th); Berliozs Symphonie Fantastique (7th); Brahmss First Symphony (8th); Tchaikovskys Sixth Symphony (9th ); and Mahlers Third Symphony (10).
The most recent work on the list is Shostakovichs Symphony No 5, ranked at 17. It was written in 1937, a time of great personal crisis for the composer after the state denunciation for his opera Lady Macbeth of Mtsensk.
The absence of more recently written symphonies is down to fashion, said Condy. Composers dont tend to write symphonies these days, they are mostly shorter orchestral pieces with titles.
Each conductor was asked to name his or her top three symphonies in any order before the magazine processed that into a top 20. Among the conductors polled was Simon Rattle (Beethovens Third, Bruckners Eighth, Mahlers Das Lied von der Erde), Marin Alsop (Barbers First, Brahmss Third, Mahlers Second), who last year conducted Last Night of the Proms, and Sakari Oramo (Beethovens Third, Mahlers Third, Sibeliuss Fifth), who will do so this year.
The BBC Music Magazine top 10- Beethoven Symphony No 3 (1803)
- Beethoven Symphony No 9 (1824)
- Mozart Symphony No 41 (1788)
- Mahler Symphony No 9 (1909)
- Mahler Symphony No 2 (1894 rev 1903)
- Brahms Symphony No 4 (1885)
- Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique (1830)
- Brahms Symphony No 1 (1876)
- Tchaikovsky Symphony No 6 (1893)
- Mahler Symphony No 3 (1896)
The top 20 is in the September issue of BBC Music Magazine.
You're my wife now.
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Eva_Yojimbo — 9 years ago(August 04, 2016 01:11 PM)
Not a bad choice by any means. Really, the entire top 6 are all valid choices for the top spot, though it's a bit mysterious how Beethoven's 5th didn't make it in there! I'd probably have Mahler's 2nd first, then Mozart's 41st, then Beethoven's 3rd, then Beethoven's 9th.
warriorspirit
: if the penis is used as a pencil holder we'll incur a cost. -
Edward_de_Vere — 9 years ago(August 05, 2016 06:57 AM)
I've always preferred Beethoven's 3d and 7th to his more famous 5th and 9th, much as I love them. I'm somewhat underwhelmed with the finale of the 9th, it's something that sounds thrilling the first time you hear it but becomes less so with each subsequent hearing (as opposed to the other three movements, where I discover something new and interesting every time).
Condy said he would have predicted that the Ninth, which contains the European Union anthem, Ode to Joy, would have been at No 1
The Ode to Joy's association with the EU doesn't help any. Somehow Schiller/Beethoven and some robotic pencil-pusher in Brussels just aren't a good fit.- Beethoven Symphony No 3 (1803)
- Beethoven Symphony No 9 (1824)
- Mozart Symphony No 41 (1788)
- Mahler Symphony No 9 (1909)
- Mahler Symphony No 2 (1894 rev 1903)
- Brahms Symphony No 4 (1885)
- Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique (1830)
- Brahms Symphony No 1 (1876)
- Tchaikovsky Symphony No 6 (1893)
- Mahler Symphony No 3 (1896)
I'm happy to see the Brahms 4th symphony get such a high ranking, it measures up well next to Beethoven, but I'm surprised to see what I (and many others) consider Mahler's weakest work make the top 10 list at all. Tchaikovsky? I don't consider him in the same league as Beethoven or Brahms, but if any of his orchestral works deserve to be on the list, it would probably be his 6th.
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Eva_Yojimbo — 9 years ago(August 05, 2016 09:00 AM)
While I somewhat agree that the finale of Beethoven's 9th doesn't hold up well with repeat listens, the first three movements do, and I think the finale is one of those works that was so revolutionary for the time and can make such an impact on a first listen, that it doesn't really matter how well it holds up afterwards; if that makes sense.
Brahms's 4th is beloved because of its musical sophistication; it's basically the apotheosis of Brahms's classicism, eschewing the paradigm of romantic expression for pure musical formalism, especially the 4th movement: see the famous quote by Haslick about it that: "For this whole movement I had the feeling that I was being given a beating by two incredibly intelligent people."
I'm also puzzled why Mahler's 3rd is there over his 5th, or even the rather beloved 4th. Agree about Tchaikovsky not being in the same league, but I'm one of the few for whom his 6th does nothing for.
warriorspirit
: if the penis is used as a pencil holder we'll incur a cost. -
Eva_Yojimbo — 9 years ago(August 05, 2016 09:00 AM)
While I somewhat agree that the finale of Beethoven's 9th doesn't hold up well with repeat listens, the first three movements do, and I think the finale is one of those works that was so revolutionary for the time and can make such an impact on a first listen, that it doesn't really matter how well it holds up afterwards; if that makes sense.
Brahms's 4th is beloved because of its musical sophistication; it's basically the apotheosis of Brahms's classicism, eschewing the paradigm of romantic expression for pure musical formalism, especially the 4th movement: see the famous quote by Haslick about it that: "For this whole movement I had the feeling that I was being given a beating by two incredibly intelligent people."
I'm also puzzled why Mahler's 3rd is there over his 5th, or even the rather beloved 4th. Agree about Tchaikovsky not being in the same league, but I'm one of the few for whom his 6th does nothing for.
warriorspirit
: if the penis is used as a pencil holder we'll incur a cost. -
fontinau — 9 years ago(August 05, 2016 01:26 PM)
The Tchaikovsky 6th may be the most original symphony since the Fantastique.
No way. If ending a symphony slow and quiet - i.e. doing what early Haydn did sometimes - is really so original, Brahms did it first anyway (and HE did it in a way Haydn never did - gradually winding down from fast and loud). -
fontinau — 9 years ago(August 08, 2016 12:40 PM)
On the other hand, if we follow Richard Taruskin's argument that Tchaikovsky represents a different symphonic tradition than Brahms - Italian opera influenced, and descending from Mozart and Schubert, with self-contained melodies as important as motivic development - then maybe you can make a case for the Pathétique as revolutionary in that it represents the culmination of Tchaikovsky's efforts in that direction.
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Eva_Yojimbo — 9 years ago(August 06, 2016 10:15 AM)
- It's not original in the slightest (see fonti's response).
- It lacks anything of real musical value. It gets by because many have a profound emotional response to it, which completely escapes me. I've always found it utterly dull and prefer Tchaikovsky's previous two symphonies; though I'd also contend his 1st Piano Concerto is probably his greatest creation.
warriorspirit
: if the penis is used as a pencil holder we'll incur a cost.
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fontinau — 9 years ago(August 06, 2016 01:22 PM)
- It lacks anything of real musical value. It gets by because many have a profound emotional response to it, which completely escapes me.
This I don't agree with. I'll trade you all the musical value in, I don't know, let's say Bruckner, for THE theme - you know the one. And the arrival of the long-withheld forte rendition of the main theme of the third movement sets my hair on fire.
- It lacks anything of real musical value. It gets by because many have a profound emotional response to it, which completely escapes me.
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Eva_Yojimbo — 9 years ago(August 06, 2016 02:00 PM)
All I can say is that neither THE theme, nor the forte rendition in the third movement, do anything for me. I'm not the biggest Bruckner fan (though I'm warming to him more than I used to be), but I'd say I enjoy the scherzo of the 9th symphony more than anything in Tchaikovsky's 6th. It occurred to me the other day when discussing rhythm VS melody in music that it sounds vaguely like the Danse des Adolescentes in Rite of Spring.
On a side note, speaking of Bruckner, all his late Scherzos make me curious about his sense of what a joke is. Given their monumental, mechanized momentum he probably would've found a panzer assault a laugh riot.
warriorspirit
: if the penis is used as a pencil holder we'll incur a cost. -
fontinau — 9 years ago(August 06, 2016 02:34 PM)
On a side note, speaking of Bruckner, all his late Scherzos make me curious about his sense of what a joke is. Given their monumental, mechanized momentum he probably would've found a panzer assault a laugh riot.
Or a Valkyrie charge. Compare the scherzo in 8 with Wagner's ride of the. -
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fontinau — 9 years ago(August 08, 2016 12:42 PM)
Well here's an argument for THE theme: You once singled out the Pas de deux from Stravinsky's Apollo, and I said it sounds to me like it starts as "Wie die Blumen im Lenze erblüh'n" from Léhar's The Merry Widow and soon becomes Satie's "Je te veux" - but what I've noticed since then is that the passage that links the two together seems to be copied from the climax of drumroll THE theme by Tchaikovsky.
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Eva_Yojimbo — 9 years ago(August 08, 2016 01:53 PM)
Hmmm, interesting. Will have to listen to all three to see if I hear the connection. Still haven't gotten around to The Merry Widow, though (opera listening been dominated by Verdi recently).
warriorspirit
: if the penis is used as a pencil holder we'll incur a cost.